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Dresaj (Training) => Dresajul pentru paza reala (Real protection training) => Topic started by: RogerW on July 04, 2010, 07:33:32 AM
Title: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on July 04, 2010, 07:33:32 AM
I wanted to relay an interesting story regarding a police dog in our training group. This dog was said to be a "real" dog, and seeing him work, I have no doubt he would bite; however, we had a very good example of why sport training is bad for even "real" dogs.
Back when the new group just started with Bob, my trainer... the K9 officer and this dog were on a chase last winter at night time for a burglary suspect, the bad guy runs onto some wooded property and they are in hot pursuit. Bad guy runs into a pond and is out of sight to the handler, although he can hear him wading through at least knee to waist-deep water. Officer sends his dog toward the sound of the bad guy, hears a lot of commotion and suddenly his dog appears, with a coat in his mouth. Bad guy gets away. My trainer told the handler it was because of his training on equipment..his toy drive equal or more intense than his fight drive. The handler said he truly believed that the dog "thought" he had the bad guy in his mouth, it was dark, wet, etc., etc.
So, instead of wondering, Bob took the whole team down there and and they reenacted the entire situation. And every dog they took did exactly the same thing.
These are dogs that policemen are depending on for their very lives at times. Lots of work to do, but they will not make that same mistake now.
Slipping sleeves, carrying sleeves....why, except for sport, teach sport techniques? There is a better way.
vreau sa va prezint o situatie interesanta cu un caine politist din grupuj nostru de dresaj. Cainele respectiv este descris ca fiind un caine de real, iar urmarindu-l la antrenamente nu ai avea dubii in privinta lui; chiar si asa, am avut parte de un exemplu clar de ce antrenamentul sportiv nu e bun pt un caine bun pt real. Ma intorc la inceputurile noului grup, cu Bob, noul meu dresor.. In Decembrie anul trecut politistul si cainele in tema se aflau in urmarirea unui presupus hot, tipul respectiv a intrat intr-o zona impadurita iar urmarirea era in plina desfasurare. Tipul intra intr-un lac si iese din campul vizual al politistului, desi se puteau auzi zgomote tipice inaintarii intr-o apa care-ti vine cam pana la brau. Politistul a trimis cainele in zona de unde veneau zgomotele respective si au urmat alte zgomote care denotau actiune dupa care se intoarce cainele, cu o haina in gura. Infractorul a fugit. Dresorul meu i-a spus ofiterului respectiv ca asta s-a datorat antrenamentului tipic sportiv, instinctul de joaca a cainelui era egal sau mai intens decat cel de lupta. Politistul a spus ca el era convins ca animalul avea de fapt in gura prada / infractorul, dar era intuneric etc etc... Asa incat sa nu se mai lungeasca discutiile, Bob (dresorul) a dus echipa la locul faptei si au reconstituit scenariul respectiv. Si toti cainii au facut exact acelasi lucru (ca si cel politist). Acestia sunt caini de care in anumite situatii depinde chiar viata politistului. Acum este mult de munca, dar cu siguranta nu vor mai face (in dresaj) aceleasi greseli. De ce sa dresezi cainele in regim sportiv (fixat pe manson) cand exista modalitati mai bune?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on July 04, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
Roger thanks so much for posting this, it is good to gather various info to outline the importance of 'real' training. We have been accused in the past for turning this "real dog" concept into a big deal. To be honest, looking at how things are "moving" I wouldn't be too surprised if, in the years to come, the "real" aspect will be approached in message boards more than often.
Roger multumesc ca ai postat asta, este bine sa adunam informatii prin care sa subliniem importanta aspectului "real". In trecut noua ni s-a spus ca inventam un concept nou, "realul". Dar sincer, analizand "miscarile" din lumea CG-ului si a sportului canin, nu m-ar surprinde sa vad in anii urmatori ca subiectul "real" este abordat mai des in forumuri internationale.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on July 04, 2010, 10:57:18 AM
You're welcome, Dani, it's an important topic.
I started Drago off with a trainer (before I met Bob Manning) who I knew was very knowledgeable about German Shepherds, and he had taken several dogs to Sch. III, travelled Germany working and training. Great trainer, very good guy and a friend. I know that some folks like to start "real" training with sport techniques and then alter the training later to change the dog from having fun and learning good technique to becoming more and more serious, and I think with some dogs that has merit and this was what he would have done for me...someone told me that several roads can get you to your destination.
But now I believe (even though I respect anyone who works dogs at all) that there has to be a way to train for the real protection dog from the very beginning so that you aren't Un-learning unnecessary and counterproductive behavior.
Cu placere, este un topic important. Cu Drago am inceput dresajul (inainte de a-l cunoaste pe Bob manning) cu un dresor care avea multe cunostinte despre CG si a pregatit multi caini pt Sch III, calatoreste in Germania in vederea lucrului si dresajului. Bun dresor, tip de treaba si prieten bun. Stiu ca unii incep dresajul de 'real' folosind elemente din dresajul sportiv, mai tarziu ulterior modificand modul de antrenament pt a trece cainele de la o faza de joaca si invatare a unei tehnici bune, la a deveni din ce in ce mai serios si cred ca in cazul unor caini aceasta cale e eficienta si cam asta ar fi vrut el sa faca si cu cainele meu... cineva mi-a spus ca mai multe cai te pot duce la aceeasi destinatie. Dar acum cred (desi respect orice lucrator cu cainele) ca trebuie sa existe o cale de a pregati cainele pt protectie 'reala' de la bun inceput fara a fi necesara alterarea metodei de lucru pe parcurs pt a dezvata cainele de un comportament nedorit si contraproductiv
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on January 30, 2011, 12:31:27 AM
Reading this again or must of missed it, but well said Roger Instead of switching from fun and games to more serious pressure applied, what would be some of the training applied if we wanted to avoid sport competition behaviour ?
recitesc asta sau poate am omis pasajul asta, dar bine spus Roger In ce priveste trecerea de la jocuri amuzante la lucruri ce implica presiune serioasa asupra animalului, care ar fi tehnicile de dresaj necesare asa incat sa evitam pe cele sportive?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 30, 2011, 04:16:32 AM
Well that's a good question and I am sort of new to this new type training that my own trainer does. I think he either is a member now or will be once he is settled down in Afghanistan, so I won't speak for him, but I have seen him use a rag with a young dog...and when he does the dog is biting for real...like in hidden sleeve work, it doesn't work forever before the dog realizes it's not real..but that first bite they think it is if worked right. (For example, Bob told me that he noticed that the decoy working Axa as a puppy was preparing her for sport but also was a good decoy because he was also not taking away too much her potential for real protection in the way he worked her). More of what I know for sure from my own observations has to do with what I think I should NOT to do as opposed what to do...for me....like not carrying sleeves or purposely turning your dog's back to the "bad guy" to run in a circle with a toy. Teaching drive for and possessiveness of an inanimate object makes no sense when the bad guy is over there. And not only people teach drive for inanimate objects, they then go on to breed for that trait instead of breeding for the instinct to actually protect. I also think that people are in such a hurry to work their dogs that they start them way to young teaching them these wrong things, instead of waiting until they're older and capitalizing on the instincts that kick in when they are more mature. Young dogs are taught against that, and the ones that are easiest to teach against it are bred (Sch comes to mind).
pai, este o intrebare buna iar eu sunt novice in acest tip de antrenemant dealtfel aplicat si de dresorul meu. cred ca fie e deja membru in forum, sau va deveni o data ce se va stabili in Afghanistan, asa ca nu voi vorbi in numele lui, dar l-am vazut juncadu-se cu carpa cu un caine tanar.. iar cand facea asra cainele musca serios.. ca in lucrul cu manson ascuns, nu dureaza mult pana ca cel mic sa se prinda ca nu e vb de ceva real.. dar ca prima priza / muscatura este 'reala" daca lucrul e facut bine. (De exemplu, Bob mi-a spus ca a observat ca atentatorul in clupul cu Axa cand era mica o pregatea pt sport dar in acelasi timp a fost un atentator pt ca nu a luat mult din potentialul ei pt lucru real, prin metoda lui de lucru). Din ceea ce stiu eu mai degraba din propriile observatii, sunt convins de ceea ce NU trebuie sa fac.. cum ar fi sa nu care mansonul in gura sau in mod intentionat sa plimbi cainele cu mansonul in gura cu spatele la infractor. Nu are sens sa fixezi cainele pe un obiect nemiscator cand atentatorul se afla in zona. Si nu numai ca ei canalizaeaza drivul in felul asta, dar si produc caini cautand astfel de drive, in loc sa promoveze caini in baza instinctului nativ de protectie. Mai cred ca multi se grabesc sa-si lucreze cainii asa incat incep lucrul mult prea devreme si-i invata aceste elemente gresite, in loc sa astepte pana cainele mai creste si sa profite de instinctele care in mod natural intra in functiune atunci cand sunt mai maturi. Caini tineri sunt invatati opusul, iar cei care sunt cel mai usor de invatat aceste lucruri, tot ei sunt si reprodusi (imi vine acum in minte selectie tip Sch)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on January 30, 2011, 01:39:03 PM
dresajul pentru real se face diferit de cel sportiv si este bine sa nu se foloseasca elemente de dresaj sportiv pentru paza
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on January 30, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
So sport training is using your typical training gear, and applying repetitive workouts(same place/same time) Would real training be biting differant objects and focusing on Man and what he may throw or hit at the dog, and working at new locations on a regular basis. Santos or Roger could you give some better description on the key points to AVOID !! If our aim was to achieve a Protection dog, rather than a Sport Sch dog. Would teaching the dog to release on command, be a form of Sport training ?
Deci in dresajul sportiv se foloseste echipamentul mai traditional si se aplica amtrenamente regulate (de rutina - acelasi timp din zi, acelasi loc) dresajul real presupune muscarea unor obiecte diferite si se tine focusul pe OM si ceea ce EL ar aunca inspre caine sau obiectul cu care ar lovi cainele, iar antrenamentele sa se desfasoare in locatii diferite. Santos si Roger, vreti va rog sa mentionati lucrurile care trebuie EVITATE!! Scopul fiind obtinerea unui caine de protectie, nu un caine sportiv de SCh. Invatarea cainelui sa lase la comanda este un element de dresaj sportiv?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 30, 2011, 09:19:45 PM
If you get in a life and death situation and you have a dog that is real enough to engage and stay on a bite...or bite everywhere, whichever he does, he isn't going to listen to your command to out,no matter how many times he has done it on the field. Not in my opinion. I could be wrong, I haven't seen every dog, that's for sure. But dogs know the difference. When I used to judge catch dogs, a few people would tell me their dogs would "out" on command. I would hate being close to them while catching, because to me that meant that he was not committed and there was going to be an even greater chance someone would get cut by the hog. I want to have to break a dog off. For safety and 3rd party evaluation I think an "out" is a good command and I will train it (and Bob will teach it) only after there is no doubt the dog is committed in all situations. I won't be pulling a dog off if he bites someone, either, he just needs to do as much damage as possible until I can get a clear shot, so an out is not that important to me.
But my trainer also stresses that there are many roads to the same destination, dogs can be trained in all kinds of ways to reach the same goal.
I hope Bob will jump in here when he gets settled, he just got to Afghanistan day before yesterday.
Daca te afli intr-o situatie critica si ai un caine care e suficient de 'real" sa se implice in lupta si sa mentina muscatura / priza.. sau sa muste de unde apuca, una din cele doua, el nu se va supune ordinului de a lasa, indiferent de cate ori a facut lasarea pe terenul de antrenament. Cel putin nu in opinia mea. ma pot insela, desigur nu am vazut toti cainii. Dar cainii inteleg diferenta. Cand arbitram caini de vanatoare (mistreti), cativa proprietari imi spuneau ca patrupezii lor vor lasa la comanda. Nu vreau sa fiu pe langa caine cand se afla in plina actiune, pt ca pt mine asta insemna ca el nu era dedicat sarcinii si pe deasupra mai erau si sanse mari ca cineva sa fie ranit de mistret. Vreau sa pot opri un caine aflat in actiune. pt siguranta si alte evaluari, cred ca aceasta comanda de lasare e una buna si chiar o voi folosi (de asta se va ocupa Bob) numai dupa ce nu incape indoiala ca patrupedul este suficient de determinat sa se implice in situatii de orice fel. Nici nu voi trage cu forta un caine care musca pe cineva, vreau ca el sa produca cat mai multa "paguba" pana cand eu am 'vizor liber". dar Bob mai spune ca sunt mai multe cai de a ajunge la aceeasi destinatie, cainii pot fi dresati in mai multe feluri pt a se atinge unul si acelasi scop. Sper sa se implice in forum si Bob, doar ce a ajuns in Afghanistan acum 2 zile.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on January 30, 2011, 11:26:43 PM
I like to use the "OUT" command in the beginning/early stages of training, and once i see that the young dog has a fairly good understanding and excepting the OUT... I would then avoid using the "OUT" command... This IMO then creates a continous winning of prey/biting, as the OFF switch command is not present. The teasing and keeping the dog in suspense should not be repeated too many times, especially when the dog reaches a stage when he loves to bite objects in various situations/confrontations. Reversing from OUT command to FIGHT command gives extra desire, the more desire there is, the more we see the FIGHT.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 31, 2011, 03:49:01 AM
Like I say, many roads to the same destination. I always taught "out" to the pups of my mixed dogs with their toys and kept it going the rest of their life in protection. Since they don't lack drives or fight I never saw any problem with it, however I never realized how many sport techniques had been taught to me by everyone I had ever trained with until I started with Bob. He and I talk a lot about how teaching something and then reversing it is an extra step that doesn't need to be there, and it happens a lot in training, which is why he trains for biting the man from the time they are puppies as much as maturity allows ...and without teaching biting equipment (I mean focusing on it in the standard sport technique way) and then "reversing" that to get them to bite the man later. When they are biting to his satisfaction in all situations, then they are taught an out...no back and forth, no teaching "this" and then turning it into "that.". But I need to let him explain his training. Since his forte is fixing the problems that police dogs have from their sport training backgrounds, he has distinct views on how to skip that training that leads to those problems. I have not raised up dogs as he does, yet. I will say however, that I never knew how equipment fixated dogs are trained to be until I was shown.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 04:59:56 AM
cant wait to hear what he has to say about sport vs police dogs..dog training is an extremly interesting subject to me
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on January 31, 2011, 08:27:44 AM
If the owner creates drive with various objects, to chase retrieve and build grip. And come the day that the K9 is confronted by stranger(helper), would this earlier training, benefit the novice K9 when an hidden sleeve is suggested to the young dog. Or is it that various equipment/objects are not needed, as this might lessen the seriousness or intention to bite for real ? I personally like to build the drives and more so the bond with Casso with some chasing/biting objects and so on.. Although i wish to have hidden sleeve/body suit work from beginning, which is what your saying i think. The K9 will focus on arm, leg and back And not only familiar equipment thrown in its face..
cant wait to hear what he has to say about sport vs police dogs..dog training is an extremly interesting subject to me
Kangdanlin i to find this topic on Sport/Police training, very interesting also. And as Roger said that many roads lead to the same destination.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on January 31, 2011, 08:51:20 AM
trebuie evitat la cainele de real sa lasam mansonul ca recompensa ,recompensa este muscatura si iesirea cainelui invingator din lupta.La ipo priza este fixa si calma muscatura foarte adanca si fixata pe mijlocul mansonului Eu prefer ca muscatura la cei de real sa fie cat mai nervoasa daca se poate sa mute priza si sa muste din toate partile in special de picior Lasarea la comanda face parte din dresajul de atac al cainilor de real Este bine sa fie facuta mai la sfarsitul dresajului mai ales pentru cainii cu un caracter mai slab Sa traduca cineva ce nu a mai fost tradus
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 09:59:43 AM
trebuie evitat la cainele de real sa lasam mansonul ca recompensa ,recompensa este muscatura si iesirea cainelui invingator din lupta.La ipo priza este fixa si calma muscatura foarte adanca si fixata pe mijlocul mansonului Eu prefer ca muscatura la cei de real sa fie cat mai nervoasa daca se poate sa mute priza si sa muste din toate partile in special de picior Lasarea la comanda face parte din dresajul de atac al cainilor de real Este bine sa fie facuta mai la sfarsitul dresajului mai ales pentru cainii cu un caracter mai slab Sa traduca cineva ce nu a mai fost tradus
for the reality dog the sleeve shouldn't be given as reward, the reward is the bite and the victory of the dog at the end of the fight.In IPO the bite is fixe, calm and very deep on the middle of the sleeve.I prefere that the bite for the reality dog to be as "nervous" as possible, andis good to change the bite in different parts of the body specialy the leg.The OUT is a part of the reality dog training program.It is best to be done in the end part of the training, specialy with softer dogs
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 10:04:08 AM
Reading this again or must of missed it, but well said Roger Instead of switching from fun and games to more serious pressure applied, what would be some of the training applied if we wanted to avoid sport competition behaviour ?
Decat sa trecem de la distractie si jocuri la presiune mai intensa aplicata, care ar fi cea mai buna metoda in cazul in care vrem sa evitam comportamentul tipic pentru sport?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 31, 2011, 10:09:45 AM
Agreed with Santos all the way. We don't give the dog a sleeve if it's used at all (suit, hidden sleeve much preferred). His reward is a "dying" decoy. Instead of teaching an out, we have let the dog get the man down after a struggle and I will pull up on the collar some, just putting tension on the dog who does NOT want to let go of the suit, and then release him so he automatically gets a better bite. We do this several times and the dog gets better and better bites because he wants to finish the fight. When the fight is over and the man is "dead", that is the dog's reward, not winning a piece of equipment.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 31, 2011, 10:30:00 AM
I did not know you could downsize video so that it made it easier to upload until Dani told me, so what we recorded here was very, very short and about 1/3 of the time we spent on this one bite. What you see at the end of the clip is me pulling up on Drago's collar. This was not to make him let go, it was to make him think he was about to lose his grip or at least to make him think he needed to fight harder; what you can't see is that after the clip cuts off is I released Drago who bit HARDER while Bob was flopping on the ground and fighting with him a bit, but slowly "dying" the longer it went on. I picked up on his collar a few more times and released it for harder and harder bites as Bob fought less and less. In the end, Drago "killed" his opponent and was put up while Bob was still on the ground. This is just a ridiculously short example and Bob can explain it much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv5-fT1Oakk
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 10:32:11 AM
Well that's a good question and I am sort of new to this new type training that my own trainer does. I think he either is a member now or will be once he is settled down in Afghanistan, so I won't speak for him, but I have seen him use a rag with a young dog...and when he does the dog is biting for real...like in hidden sleeve work, it doesn't work forever before the dog realizes it's not real..but that first bite they think it is if worked right. (For example, Bob told me that he noticed that the decoy working Axa as a puppy was preparing her for sport but also was a good decoy because he was also not taking away too much her potential for real protection in the way he worked her). More of what I know for sure from my own observations has to do with what I think I should NOT to do as opposed what to do...for me....like not carrying sleeves or purposely turning your dog's back to the "bad guy" to run in a circle with a toy. Teaching drive for and possessiveness of an inanimate object makes no sense when the bad guy is over there. And not only people teach drive for inanimate objects, they then go on to breed for that trait instead of breeding for the instinct to actually protect. I also think that people are in such a hurry to work their dogs that they start them way to young teaching them these wrong things, instead of waiting until they're older and capitalizing on the instincts that kick in when they are more mature. Young dogs are taught against that, and the ones that are easiest to teach against it are bred (Sch comes to mind).
asta e o intrebare buna, iar eu sunt mai nou in ceea ce priveste tipul asta de dresaj pe care dresorul meu il face.Cred ca ori este membru pe forum , ori va deveni membru odata ce se va stabili in afganistan, asa ca nu voi vorbi pentru el,dar l-am vazut folosing o carpa cu un caine tanar...si cand o foloseste cainele musca pentru real...la fel si cu maneca ascunsa, nu lucreaza prea mult , ca sa nu-si dea seama cainele ca nu e real...dar prima muscatura cainele crede ca este reala, in cazul in care este lucrata asa cum trebuie.(Spre exemplu Bob, mi-a spus ca atentatorul care a lucrat-o pe Axa cand era pui o pregatea pentru sport, dar ca e un atentator bun si pentru ca nu i-a luat prea mult din potentialul pentru realitate, prin felul in care a lucrat cu ea). Ceea ce stiu sigur din observatiile mele,are mai mult legatura cu ceea ce NU ar trebui sa fac, decat cu ceea ce ar trebui sa fac...pentru mine...de exemplu sa nu dau cainelui sa duca maneca, sau sa nu intorc intentionat cainele cu spatele la infractor pentru a purta jucaria in cerc. Sa-l invat sa lupte pentru a poseda un obiect al infractorului, nu are nici un rost atat cat timp infractorul este acolo.Si nu doar ca se invata cainele sa posede un obiect al infractorului, dar se trece la selectia cainilor special pentru aceasta caracteristica in loc sa se faca selectia tinand cont de instinctul de protectie.Mai cred ca oamenii se grabesc prea tare sa-si lucreze cainii, astfel incat ii invata de mici aceste lucruri gresite, in loc sa astepte sa creasca cainele si sa profite de instinctele ce apar mai tarziu, spre maturitate. Cainii tineri sunt dresati contrar acestui principiu, iar cei ce invata cel mai usor in felul acesta sunt selectati(SCh imi vine in minte)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 10:33:39 AM
If you get in a life and death situation and you have a dog that is real enough to engage and stay on a bite...or bite everywhere, whichever he does, he isn't going to listen to your command to out,no matter how many times he has done it on the field. Not in my opinion. I could be wrong, I haven't seen every dog, that's for sure. But dogs know the difference. When I used to judge catch dogs, a few people would tell me their dogs would "out" on command. I would hate being close to them while catching, because to me that meant that he was not committed and there was going to be an even greater chance someone would get cut by the hog. I want to have to break a dog off. For safety and 3rd party evaluation I think an "out" is a good command and I will train it (and Bob will teach it) only after there is no doubt the dog is committed in all situations. I won't be pulling a dog off if he bites someone, either, he just needs to do as much damage as possible until I can get a clear shot, so an out is not that important to me.
But my trainer also stresses that there are many roads to the same destination, dogs can be trained in all kinds of ways to reach the same goal.
I hope Bob will jump in here when he gets settled, he just got to Afghanistan day before yesterday.
cand esti implicat intr-o situatie pe viata si pe moarte, si ai un caine destul de "real" incat sa muste si sa stea acolo...ori daca musca de oriunde, oricum ar face-o, nu va asculta comanda OUT, indiferent de cate ori ati repetat pe terenul de dresaj.Eu cred ca nu.As putea sa ma insel,n-am vazut toti cainii, asta-i sigur.Dar cainii sesizeaza diferenta.Cand arbitram caini pentru a prinde porci, cativa oameni mi-au spus ca au caini ce dau drumul la comanda.Uram sa fiu aproape de ei, cand prindeau pentru ca asta insemna ca nu sunt destul de hotarati si era pericolol destul de mare ca cineva sa fie ranit de porc. Vreau sa am un caine pe care sa trebuiasca sa-l "trag" de pe porc.Pentru siguranta si in ultimul rand pentru evaluare,cred ca "OUT" este o comanda buna, si o voi pregati( Bob o va preda), numai cand sunt absolut sigur ca , cainele este hotarat in toate situatiile.Nici nu voi opri un caine in timpul muscaturii, pur si simplu el trebuie sa produca cat mai multe rani asa incat eu sa am o sansa cat mai buna, deci comanda OUT nu este asa de importanta pentru mine.
Dar dresorul meu insista ca sunt multe drumuri care ajung la aceeasi destinatie, cainii pot fi dresati in multe feluri pentru a ajunge la acelasi punct.
Sper ca Bob sa intervina in discutie cat de curand, tocmai ce a ajuns in Afganistan acum 3 zile
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 10:59:36 AM
I like to use the "OUT" command in the beginning/early stages of training, and once i see that the young dog has a fairly good understanding and excepting the OUT... I would then avoid using the "OUT" command... This IMO then creates a continous winning of prey/biting, as the OFF switch command is not present. The teasing and keeping the dog in suspense should not be repeated too many times, especially when the dog reaches a stage when he loves to bite objects in various situations/confrontations. Reversing from OUT command to FIGHT command gives extra desire, the more desire there is, the more we see the FIGHT.
Imi place sa folosesc comanda OUT, la inceput in primele stadii ale antrenamentului, si in momentul cand vad ca acesta a inteles destul de bine si accepta comanda ..apoi evit sa folosesc comanda OUT...Acest mod de operare creeaza victoria din prada/muscatura, cum comanda de OFF nu este prezenta.Agitarea si mentinerea cainelui in suspans nu trebuie repetata prea mult, in special cand ajunge la placerea de a musca obiecte in diferite situatii/confruntari.Inversand comanda OUT catre LUPTA sporim dorinta cainelui, cu cat are mai multa dorinta, cu atat mai mult vedem LUPTA.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 11:21:45 AM
Like I say, many roads to the same destination. I always taught "out" to the pups of my mixed dogs with their toys and kept it going the rest of their life in protection. Since they don't lack drives or fight I never saw any problem with it, however I never realized how many sport techniques had been taught to me by everyone I had ever trained with until I started with Bob. He and I talk a lot about how teaching something and then reversing it is an extra step that doesn't need to be there, and it happens a lot in training, which is why he trains for biting the man from the time they are puppies as much as maturity allows ...and without teaching biting equipment (I mean focusing on it in the standard sport technique way) and then "reversing" that to get them to bite the man later. When they are biting to his satisfaction in all situations, then they are taught an out...no back and forth, no teaching "this" and then turning it into "that.". But I need to let him explain his training. Since his forte is fixing the problems that police dogs have from their sport training backgrounds, he has distinct views on how to skip that training that leads to those problems. I have not raised up dogs as he does, yet. I will say however, that I never knew how equipment fixated dogs are trained to be until I was shown.
cum spuneam, multe drumuri duc la aceeasi destinatie.totdeauna am predat comanda OUT puilor legat de jucarii, si am pastrat lucrul acesta toata viata sin in protectie.din moment ce nu duc lipsa de drive sau de fight n-am vazut nici o problema, cu toate astea nu am realizat cate tehnici de sport am fost invatat de toti cei cu care am lucrat pana cand am inceput sa lucrez cu Bob. Am vorbit cu el de multe ori despre invatarea unei comenzi si apoi de inversarea ei, si aceasta este un pas suplimentar care nu-i necesar, si se intampla de multe ori in antrenamente, si de aceea el lucreaza muscatura pe om chiar de pui atat cat le permite varsta...fara a introduce echipamentul de dresaj( ma refer la fixarea lor pe echipament asa cum se intampla in sport), si apoi ii "intoarce" asa incat sa muste omul mai tarziu.Numai in clipa cand cainele musca asa cum ii place lui in orice situatie, va incepe sa-i invete comanda OUT....nimic inainte si inapoi...nu-i invata "asta", pentru ca mai tarziu "asta" sa insemne "alta".cred ca cel mai bine il las pe el sa explice ce metoda aplica.atat timp cat punctul lui forte este acela de a repara greselile datorate dresajului pentru sport, el are pareri distincte despre cum sa evite tipul de antrenament ce conduce spre aceste probleme. Pana acum nu am crescut nici un caine dupa metoda lui, inca.Totusi pot sa spun , ca nu am realizat cat de fixati pe echipament devin cainii, pana ce nu mi s-a aratat.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobo70 on January 31, 2011, 11:23:35 AM
Multumim pentru traduceri "kangdanlin". :) Ti-ai pierdut ceva timp cu asta.... ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 11:27:33 AM
If the owner creates drive with various objects, to chase retrieve and build grip. And come the day that the K9 is confronted by stranger(helper), would this earlier training, benefit the novice K9 when an hidden sleeve is suggested to the young dog. Or is it that various equipment/objects are not needed, as this might lessen the seriousness or intention to bite for real ? I personally like to build the drives and more so the bond with Casso with some chasing/biting objects and so on.. Although i wish to have hidden sleeve/body suit work from beginning, which is what your saying i think. The K9 will focus on arm, leg and back And not only familiar equipment thrown in its face..Kangdanlin i to find this topic on Sport/Police training, very interesting also. And as Roger said that many roads lead to the same destination.
daca stapanul creeaza dirve cu ajutorul unor obiecte variate, pentru a urmari aporta si construi muscatura.Si daca vine ziua cand cainele este confruntat de un strain(ajutor),acest antrenament anterior il va ajuta in momentul cand i se va prezenta maneca ascunsa. ori aceste obiecte/echipamente variate nu sunt necesare, atat timp cat lectia principala este seriozitatea si intentia de a musca pe real? personal prefer sa creez drive si atasament cu Casso prin vanarea/muscarea unor obiecte si asa mai departe.. Desi imi doresc sa am maneca ascunsa/costum de lucru chiar de la inceput, asta fiind si ceea ce recomanzi cred. Cainele se va fixa pe brat, picior, spate si nu doar pe echipamentul familiar aruncat spre el.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 11:40:43 AM
Agreed with Santos all the way. We don't give the dog a sleeve if it's used at all (suit, hidden sleeve much preferred). His reward is a "dying" decoy. Instead of teaching an out, we have let the dog get the man down after a struggle and I will pull up on the collar some, just putting tension on the dog who does NOT want to let go of the suit, and then release him so he automatically gets a better bite. We do this several times and the dog gets better and better bites because he wants to finish the fight. When the fight is over and the man is "dead", that is the dog's reward, not winning a piece of equipment.
de acord cu Santos in tot ceea ce spune.nu oferim cainelui maneca obisnuita(costum, maneca ascunsa este preferata).Recompensa lui este un atentator ce "moare".Decat sa invat OUT, las cainele sa doboare omul dupa o lupta si voi trage putin de zgarda, doar sa creez tensiune in cainele care NU vrea sa lase costumul, si apoi il eliberez asa incat automat el va prinde mai bine.Facem lucrul acesta de cateva ori iar cainele invata sa prinda tot mai bine pentru ca vrea sa termine lupta.Cand omul este "mort", aceasta este recompensa cainelui si nu castigarea unei bucati de echipament
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on January 31, 2011, 11:53:58 AM
LOL, you're welcome Bobo, I'm a novice with 16 years of being around it and just now learning something. lol
Bob tried to post on this thread, but hasn't been approved. Either that or he is having trouble with his computer in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on January 31, 2011, 12:01:40 PM
eu caut sa fac sa prinda cainele ura pe atentator apoi il invat sa muste Acesta este cel mai important lucru sa faci cainele sa urasca atentatorul Am sa filmez cum incep eu dresajul de paza sa va puteti da seama
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 12:04:17 PM
I did not know you could downsize video so that it made it easier to upload until Dani told me, so what we recorded here was very, very short and about 1/3 of the time we spent on this one bite. What you see at the end of the clip is me pulling up on Drago's collar. This was not to make him let go, it was to make him think he was about to lose his grip or at least to make him think he needed to fight harder; what you can't see is that after the clip cuts off is I released Drago who bit HARDER while Bob was flopping on the ground and fighting with him a bit, but slowly "dying" the longer it went on. I picked up on his collar a few more times and released it for harder and harder bites as Bob fought less and less. In the end, Drago "killed" his opponent and was put up while Bob was still on the ground. This is just a ridiculously short example and Bob can explain it much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv5-fT1Oakk
nu stiam ca pot sa micsorez un clip asa incat sa fie mai usor de pus pe youtube, pana ce dani nu mi-a spus ceea ce am inregistrat aici este foarte foarte scurt, si reprezinta cam 1/3 din sedinta pentru aceasta muscatura.ceea ce vedeti la final este cum trag de zgarda lui Drago.scopul nu era de a-l face sa dea drumu, ci pentru a-l face sa creada ca mai are putin si va scapa muscatura sau sa-l fac sa creada ca trebuie sa lupte mai mult;ceea ce nu se vede pe clip este faptul ca dupa ce clipul se termina eu il eliberez pe Drago, care a muscat mai TARE in timp ce Bob se zbatea la pamant luptand putin cu cainele, in timp ce "murea" treptat.L-am prins de zgarda de cateva ori si apoi l-am eliberat ca sa poata musca tot mai bine , iar Bob punea din ce in ce mai putina rezistenta.La final Drago si-a "omorat" openentul si a fost luat in timp ce Bob era inca la pamant.Acesta este un exemplu ridicol de scurt dar Bob va explica mult mai bine.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobo70 on January 31, 2011, 12:06:12 PM
eu caut sa fac sa prinda cainele ura pe atentator apoi il invat sa muste Acesta este cel mai important lucru sa faci cainele sa urasca atentatorul Am sa filmez cum incep eu dresajul de paza sa va puteti da seama
i try to make the dog HATE the helper and then i teach him how to bite.This is the most important thing to make the dog hate the helper. i will film how i start the protection training so you can understand better what i want to say
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobo70 on January 31, 2011, 12:10:12 PM
i try to make the dog HATE the helper and then i teach him how to bite.This is the most important thing to make the dog hate the helper. i will film how i start the protection training so you can understand better what i want to say
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 12:21:13 PM
I understand, Santos. And look forward to seeing your videos.
inteleg Santos, si astept sa vad clipurile :rockon:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on January 31, 2011, 12:46:52 PM
Kangdanlin - multumesc mult pt traduceri!!!!!!! cand am vazut cate pagini s-au facut doar azi ma gandeam.. aoleu.. dar abia acum am vazut ca deja ai tradus tu - multumesc!!!
Kangdanlin - thank you so much for interpreting for the guys!! When i first noticed the number of posts to translate, i thought.. oh my goodness... but eventually i realized you already translated them - thank you!!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
beer2 pentru nimic...e foarte interesant subiectul ..daca o sa mai fie cazul o sa mai traduc
beer2 for nothing...very interesting subject..i will translate more if there is the case
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on January 31, 2011, 03:01:05 PM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on January 31, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
i am really glad that Bob's strong point is to recuperate sport dogs for the reality, this means he can give some very competent advice also regarding the "helper workout" or the "helper behaviour" too..what are the biggest mistakes he usualy has to correct...i think this is maybe the biggest subject, as the helper can make or brake your dog!
regarding to bite development, i've seen in a site, a police helper describing his way of doing things...he started the dog in prey (chasing and the first bite of the helper), and then he would work the dog only in defense...muzzle...when the dog worked good in defense he would start the fighting drive development,by working the dog in prey again(atac the running decoy from behind) ..i would like to know what you think about this way
ma bucur sa aud ca punctul forte al lui Bob este acela de a recupera cainele de sport pentru realitate, asta inseamna ca poate sa vina de asemeni si cu niste sfaturi foarte competente referitor la ceea ce ar trebui sa faca "Ajutorul"..care sunt cele mai frecvente lucruri pe care le corecteaza de obicei...cred ca asta este poate cel mai important subiect , avand in vedere ca "ajutorul" poate sa-ti faca sau sa strice cainele!
referitor la etapele formarii muscaturii, am citit pe un site descrierea unui politist asupra metodei folosite de el..si anume incepea cainele "in prada"(vanarea si prima prindere a Ajutorului), iar apoi lucra cainele numai "in aparare" ..lucrul cu botnita...iar dupa ce era multumit de felul cum lucreaza "in aparare" trecea la dezvoltarea instinctul de lupta, si pentru asta revenea la lucrul "in prada" , mai exact prinderea din spate a infractorului care alearga as vrea sa stiu ce parere aveti despre metoda asta
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on January 31, 2011, 11:58:03 PM
We're getting here somewhere guys, clear training methods, besides those applied for sport. Thanks very much Roger and have always believed in doing straight up 'suit/hidden sleeve'. And just needed to hear some other; who follows this method, and not wasting there time on sleeve. Have seen training for 20+ years and its always been sleeve circling dogs, where the majority were never capable of long distance 'suit' work.. Its a hassle reversing and switching the type of work, which i dont see why most trainers would continue to do so.. Simple effective training and genetics ofcourse; gives results..! As Roger said he holds back the collar lifting, not to release but tease or work with the dog to generate more fire :devil:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 12:23:47 AM
We're getting here somewhere guys, clear training methods, besides those applied for sport. Thanks very much Roger and have always believed in doing straight up 'suit/hidden sleeve'. And just needed to hear some other; who follows this method, and not wasting there time on sleeve. Have seen training for 20+ years and its always been sleeve circling dogs, where the majority were never capable of long distance 'suit' work.. Its a hassle reversing and switching the type of work, which i dont see why most trainers would continue to do so.. Simple effective training and genetics ofcourse; gives results..! As Roger said he holds back the collar lifting, not to release but tease or work with the dog to generate more fire :devil:
hai ca ajungem undeva, metode clare de antrenament,pe langa cele aplicate pentru sport. Multumesc Roger foarte mult, am crezut din totdeauna in folosirea directa a costumului/manecii ascunse.Doar ca aveam nevoie sa mai aud si altele;cine foloseste metoda asta de dresaj fara a mai irosi timpul cu maneca.Am vazut dresaj timp de 20 de ani, si a fost tot timpul cu caini care merg in cerc cu mansonul in gura, timp in care majoritatea nu erau capabili de "lucru pe costum" pe termen lung...este o bataie de cap sa tot schimbi si sa te intorci de la un mod de lucru la altul, si nu inteleg de ce majoritatea dresorilor continua sa faca asa.Metode simple si efective plus genetica dau rezultate bune...! Cum spunea si Roger ca trage cainele de zgarda nu pentru a elabera ci pentru a-l stimula sau lucra cainele generand mai multe "scantei" :devil:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 06:12:10 AM
guys this is indeed very good talk - keep going with it, I love it!! I love watching real work vs sport work - this is good!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 01, 2011, 07:11:12 AM
eu nu caut la cainii de real sa le formez muscatura Nu ma intereseaza priza ci nervul cu care musca Formarea cainelui de real invatand cainele sa muste din prada nu prea da roade in situatii reale ,pentru spectacol merge
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 08:02:16 AM
eu nu caut la cainii de real sa le formez muscatura Nu ma intereseaza priza ci nervul cu care musca Formarea cainelui de real invatand cainele sa muste din prada nu prea da roade in situatii reale ,pentru spectacol merge
i dont try to build the bite.I am not interested in the lock, what i care is the nerve during the bite.Training a reality dog by biting in prey doesnt really work in the streets, only for show works
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 08:22:53 AM
pana la urma care o fi scopul muscaturii calme, gen Sch?...de ce se insista atat de mult pe genul asta de muscatura?
so what is the point of the calm grip, Sch type?...why do people insist so much on this type of bite?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 01, 2011, 09:09:24 AM
muscatura calma arata ca este un caine ( echilibrat) iar ceilalti sunt dezechilibrati la atac prefer cainele care isi arata dintii la atentator care latra la atentator din ura nu ca sa primeasca mansonul am filmat cum am promis cum incep eu cainii de real
a calm lock bite shows that the dog is (balanced) and the others are not when attacking, i prefer the dog who shows its fangs and barks out of hatred towards the agitator, not just to receive the sleeve as I promised, i filmed my way of teaching the dog the first steps in real protection
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 09:22:42 AM
Hello fellow dogmen. My name is Bob Manning and first of all I want to thank you for allowing me to join in all this discussion.
I have been watching it evolve for a couple of days, but was unable to comment. Now there is so much to comment on, I don't know where to start! lol! So I will start with my opinion on the most resent question and work my way back.
Kangdanlin, asked "what is the point of teaching the calm grip" as they do in Sch. To the degree that the sport folks teach it, I don't agree, but I do in some cases and for some reasons calm a dog on the grip. If the decoy is fighting the dog, I want the dog to bite hard and fight! not "fall asleep on the grip," but there must be a balance. If a young dog is getting hectic or stressed, I will try to calm him. Balance. When I have the decoy begin to die, and I do this instead of slipping the equipment in most cases, I want the dog to begin to calm down. Where if, say a young dog was may be felling a little stress, here it is lessened by both the decoy beginning to weaken and die as well as me calming him with long slow strokes and soothing praise. I feel that the decoy dying and the dog calming but holding his grip is like a predator waiting for his prey to die. I am getting him to understand, hang in there, and you will defeat your adversary/prey and I have been here with you all along. I say adversary/prey, because during the fight the dog probably viewed the man as an adversary. But in the end, as he is showing signs of weakening, it is empowering and comforting to the dog to now view him as dying prey. This may seem to be over-romanticizing on my part, but in my experiences, I have seen it have this effect on the dog.
va salut prieteni ai cainilor. mai intai de toate vreau sa va multumesc pt primirea in randurile voastre. am urmarit cursul topicului in ultimele 2 zile, dar nu am putut posta. Acum as vrea sa spun asa multe, dar nu stiu de unde sa incep :grin: asa ca voi incepe prin a comenta la adresa celei mai recente intrebari si apoi le iau la rand pe celelalte. Kangdanlin intreba "care e rostul invatarii prizei calme" asa cum se face in Schh. Nu sunt nici eu de acord cu nivelul la care se lucreaza in sensul asta, pe terenul sportiv, dar agreez asa ceva in anumite cazuri iar din anumite motive voi calma cainele pe priza. Daca infractorul se lupta cu cainele, vreau ca animalul sa muste puternic si sa lupte! Nu sa il "ia somnul pe priza", dar trebuie sa existe un echilibru. daca un caine tanar devine obosit sau stresat, incerc sa-l calmez. Echilibru. Cand infractorul incepe sa cedeze si, prefer asta in loc ca infractorul sa dea drumul echipamentului, vreau ca patrupedul sa inceapa sa se calmeze. pe cand, sa spunem ca un caine tanar incepe sa se simta putin stresat, aici stresul este redus prin faptul ca infractorul incepe sa cedeze plus faptul ca eu il calmez prin voce, smucituri lungi dar usoare din lesa si atingerea mainii. pot asocia acest lucru cu animalul de prada care asteapta sa moara prada prinsa. Il fac sa inteleaga ce se intampla, sa reziste si isi va infrange adversarul / prada, iar eu am fost aici cu tine pe tot parcursul. Spun adversar / prada, pt ca in timpul luptei, cainele probabil a vazut omul ca fiind adversarul. Dar pe masura ce omul/adversarul da semne de slabiciune, este incurajator pt caine sa il vada acum ca fiind prada care e pe moarte. posibil sa sune putin dramatizat, dar am experimentat aceasta metoda cu cainele.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 09:24:08 AM
la atac prefer cainele care isi arata dintii la atentator care latra la atentator din ura nu ca sa primeasca mansonul am filmat cum am promis cum incep eu cainii de real
Nu cred ca putem trage linie si sa spunem 'asa trebuie sa arate un caine care musca din ura fatza de atentator", parerea mea.. Ben al meu, nu isi arata dintii, nici nu latra, ci tragea tare din zgarda, cu privirea tinta in ochii atentatorului iar priza o data facuta pe manson, incerca sa si-o afunde, daca ma pot exprima asa, desi priza era completa. nu dadea deloc din coada. In momentul in care atentatorul lasa mansonul jos, Ben automat lasa si el si se repedea imediat in ce era mai aproape de el (piciorul atentatorului de cele mai multe ori). Am sa incerc sa dau de baietii din "garda veche", in spetza cei care l-au avut pe Ben pe manson, ei ar putea spune mai multe detalii. Vorbeam si cu Dux despre lucrurile astea si personal asta cred, anume ca daca un caine e fixat pe infractor sa muste din instinct de lupta, nu inseamna neaparat ca isi va arata coltii (repet, este parerea mea)
I don't think we should draw a line and say that a dog should look like this or like that and that tells me he is a real dog, just IMO.. My Ben did not show his fangs, did not bark, he was just pooling hard trying to get loose so he could finally bite, and looking the agitator straight in the eyes. once he locked the bite, he was trying to go deeper (although it was a full grip already), no tail wagging and if the agitator released the equipment, he immediately out too and went for whatever he "found" first (most times would be the agitator's leg). i will try and get in touch with my "old school" guys, who have worked . felt Ben on the bite. Not long ago I was chatting to Dux about this and i still believe a dog that will bite for real will /should display one and the same behavior pattern
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 09:26:16 AM
@bobdog
Welcome to the forum :welcome:! We are glad to have you here with us and rest assured your comments will be valued. So, "show must go on"!.. carry on guys! ;)
Bun venit in forum! Ne bucuram sa te avem aici cu noi si fii sigur ca ceea ce ai de spus va fi apreciat. Deci, dati-i bataie in continuare!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 09:37:49 AM
Zimbris, thank you for the warm welcome. I feel like I am behind in a lot of good discussion. I also feel Roger has played me up too much! As a friend of mine once said, " The only thing I am an expert in is my own opinion." lol But I love sharing my opinion as well as hearing the opinion's of others. So again, thank you for your hospitality. Bob
Multumesc pt buna primire. Simt ca am de recuperat dupa multe discutii f bune. mai simt ca roger m-a jucat prea mult! Cum spunea un prieten de-al meu, "singurul lucru de care sunt sigur este opinia mea". :grin: dar imi place sa imi spun parerea si sa o citesc pe cea a altora. Deci dinj nou, multumesc pt primirea calduroasa.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 09:47:22 AM
Zimbris, thank you for the warm welcome. I feel like I am behind in a lot of good discussion. I also feel Roger has played me up too much! As a friend of mine once said, " The only thing I am an expert in is my own opinion." lol But I love sharing my opinion as well as hearing the opinion's of others. So again, thank you for your hospitality. Bob
Like I said, we're glad to have you here, I am yet even more glad we seem to be (more or less) on the same boat :beer:
Cum spuneam, ne bucuram sa te avem aici, ma bucur cu atat mai mult sa stiu ca ne aflam (mai mult sau mai putin) in aceeasi barca
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 09:49:54 AM
:beer: To working dogs!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:08:49 AM
Zimbris, I just read your post just before or after, I forgot, and I agree. We cant draw that line. ...And again, these are my opinions based on my experiences. I want to remain humble here. I feel I am in the company of many good dogmen. I think there are many factors leading to the picture we see of a "real dog" Some are genetic, while some are products of the dogs training. How he was brought to where he is.
Zimbris, am citit postarea ta si sunt de acord. Nu putem generaliza.. Si din nou, acestea sunt opiniile mele, in baza experientelor personale. Vreau sa raman "smerit" aici. Simt ca sunt in compania multor oameni experimentati aici. cred ca sunt mai multi factori care duc la imaginea 'cainelui real". Unii sunt genetici iar unii sunt rezultate ale dresajului. Cum anume a fost aduc la punctul in acre se afla.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 10:19:41 AM
Zimbris, I just read your post just before or after, I forgot, and I agree. We cant draw that line. ...And again, these are my opinions based on my experiences.
well really.. same here, I made the statement I just did, because that was my experience with Ben, and nothing in this universe could contest Ben's "real" spirit. One of the agitator Nicu still works with is Ender. i will ask him to post a few words about Ben.
pai sincer.. si eu fac afirmatia pe care am facut-o tot in baza experientelor personale cu Ben. Si nimic in univesrul asta nu poate contrazice faptul ca Ben a fost un caine "real" One of the agitators Nicu still works with is ender, i will ask him to join and post a few words on Ben.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:21:26 AM
I feel I need to share some of my philosophy before I continue. If the dog is worked on "the man" from the beginning in all drives. I feel like the drives we work the dog in is lie a continuum. Prey------fight-drive-----defense or Defense------fight-drive-------prey If a grown dog is started in defense or if all his prey work was for equipment and then worked hard in defense, and or if he has a lot of defense, geneticly he is more likely to show teeth ect. But if he is worked in prey for the man and developed a strong foundation in such work, as he is pulled toward the defense side of this continuum into fight-drive and or he has less defense and more prey, genetically he will show less teeth etc but is still very real. A case could be made that he might even be more confident in the work.
cred ca trebuie sa precizez anumite filozofii personale inainte de a posta in continuare. In cazul in care cainele este lucrat "pe om" de la bun inceput, in toate instinctele. Eu am impresia ca exista un ciclu anume intre instinctele in care lucram cainele. Prada----lupta----aparare sau Aparare------lupta------prada daca se incepe lucrul cu un caine adult in aparare sau daca tot lucrul in prada este efectuat pe echipament (nu pe om) iar ulterior lucrat tare in aparare, sau daca are f multa aparare, genetic el foarte probabil nu isi va arata coltii. dara daca este lucrat in prada pe om si s-a inradacinat bine in aceasta metoda de lucru, pe masura ce e adus inspre partea din aparare a acestui ciclu in inst de lupta sau daca are mai putina aparare si mai multa prada, genetic sunt sanse mai mici sa-si arate coltii etc, dar asta nu inseamna ca nu real. de fapt se poate discuta daca nu cumva un astfel de caine sa fie si mai increzator in lucru.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobo70 on February 01, 2011, 10:24:37 AM
Foarte interesant ce spune Bob. Thank you Bob for your professional opinions. Multumim Dani pentru traduceri.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:31:23 AM
I sometimes think prey drive is misunderstood and mis-utilized. Because dogs prey drive is usually channeled toward the sleeve, people tend to believe it is play and not real. Ask a gazelle if the lion that is in the process of killing him if prey drive is real? Understand though I am talking about serious prey drive. Not play drive. They mimic each other, but are not the same thing. I will try to post a video of a young police dog in training. It is kind of long, because the dog runs a short track before he finds me. If you want to skip ahead to the bite work, to see my point feel free. In this video, I feel that the dog is in prey through must of the work. But there is little doubt that it is real and I am the focus of that prey. I hope you enjoy it.
Foarte interesant ce spune Bob. Thank you Bob for your professional opinions. Multumim Dani pentru traduceri.
cu placere!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:35:28 AM
Thank you Bobo70. My nickname as an adult for years has been Bobdog, because of my love of dogs. When I was a little boy, a friend of the family took to calling me Bobo for the same reason. lol
Multumesc Bobo70. Pt cativa ani am purtat porecla de Bobdog datorita pasiunii mele pt caini. Cand eram mic, un prieten de familia ma striga asa din acelasi motiv :grin:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 10:36:20 AM
That link did not work for me. I don't think I've seen this, Bob. The last time I saw that video was made was the work that Tyson did with Roscoe at the units... I want to see this. When I hit the link it goes to MY photobucket account. lol
Pt mine nu a functionat linkul. Nu cred ca am vazut asta, Bob. Ultima oara cand am vazut acel antrenament, era efectuat de Tyson cu Roscoe la sectie..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:43:22 AM
Lol! How are you, Roger? It might be because you might be logged in to your photobucket account? Though I am not sure. I clicked on it on this forum, and it took me to the right video. I will send it to your email.
:grin: ce mai faci Roger? Poate motivul este ca te-ai logat pe Photobucket? Nu stiu sigur. Am accesat linkul chiar din acest forum si am vizionat clipul corespunzator. Ti-l trimit din nou pe mail.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 10:48:18 AM
Lol! How are you, Roger? It might be because you might be logged in to your photobucket account?
:laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 10:51:17 AM
hello Bob, thanks for answering my question..i understand what you talk about...the dog fights with you, and then you are "almost dead", and the dog just looks at you...when the dog is more calm is easyer to call him back i imagine i see this session is like fighting--relaxing--fighting again
does the biting session ever finish with you running away..or you always need to "die"? :)
that sleeve is really hidden i must say:)
buna Bob, multumesc de raspuns..inteleg ceea ce spui..cainele se lupta cu tine, iar tu esti "aproape mort", apoi cainele pur si simplu se uita la tine ...cand e mai calm imi imaginez ca e mai usor sa-l chemi inapoi
sedinta asta o vad de genul lupta--relaxare--iarasi lupta
sedinta se termina vreodata cu tine fugind...sau trebuie sa "mori" de fiecare data?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:58:13 AM
Kangdanlin. No, I don't feel like it has to end with the decoy always dying. This is more in the beginning, or when the dog needs a boost of confidence. I do end often with the decoy running off. Like if I think the dog needs more frustration to help with his desire/drive. In scenario and or control work, the decoy may stay on his feet. just like dogs who had the sleeve slipped to them in early work don't always have the sleeve slipped to them. As the work advances, sometimes they have to out, sleeve intact.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 11:08:20 AM
I sometimes think prey drive is misunderstood and mis-utilized. Because dogs prey drive is usually channeled toward the sleeve, people tend to believe it is play and not real. Ask a gazelle if the lion that is in the process of killing him if prey drive is real? Understand though I am talking about serious prey drive. Not play drive. They mimic each other, but are not the same thing. I will try to post a video of a young police dog in training. It is kind of long, because the dog runs a short track before he finds me. If you want to skip ahead to the bite work, to see my point feel free. In this video, I feel that the dog is in prey through must of the work. But there is little doubt that it is real and I am the focus of that prey. I hope you enjoy it.
cate o data cred ca instinctul de prada este gresit inteles/aplicat.Deoarece de obicei instinctul de prada al cainelui este directionat catre maneca, oamenii cred ca este vorba de joaca si nu este real/serios.Intreaba o gazela daca leul care este cat pe ce sa o manance din instinct de prada este un instinct real sau nu.Intelegeti totusi ca vorbesc despre instinctul de prada serios.Nu este vorba despre instinctul de joaca.Sunt doua lucruri similare, dar totusi nu este vorba despre acelasi lucru.voi posta un clip cu un caine tanar de politie la antrenament.este putin lung deoarece cainele fuge la inceput o bucata pana ma gaseste.Daca veti da inainte pana in momentul muscaturii , ca sa puteti vedea despre ce vorbesc e ok.Cred ca in clipul acesta, cainele este mai mult in instinct de prada.Dar este putin dubiu ca nu e real si ca eu sunt de fapt obiectul prazii.Sper sa va placa
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 11:11:53 AM
Learn something new every day. lol I am automatically signed in to my photobucket account, doesn't matter who else's photobucket link I hit, it goes to my account. So I signed out and watched it.
I know that police dogs have to be trained to hold one bite (for the most part) to avoid departmental liability from lawsuits.... however, I'm still gonna buy you a football helmet and mask. lol Remember when Riker almost got Jay's face? :laugh:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 11:14:08 AM
Multumesc Kangdanline!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 11:15:04 AM
Kangdanlin. No, I don't feel like it has to end with the decoy always dying. This is more in the beginning, or when the dog needs a boost of confidence. I do end often with the decoy running off. Like if I think the dog needs more frustration to help with his desire/drive. In scenario and or control work, the decoy may stay on his feet. just like dogs who had the sleeve slipped to them in early work don't always have the sleeve slipped to them. As the work advances, sometimes they have to out, sleeve intact.
kangdanlin, nu cred ca sedinta trebuie sa se termine totdeauna cu infractorul "omorat".Aceasta este mai mult la inceput, sau daca cainele are nevoie sa-si intareasca increderea.Deseori termin sedinta cu infractorul pe fuga.Daca consider ca cainele are nevoie de mai multa frustrare pentru a-i mari dorinta/drive-ul.In scenariu sau munca pentru control, "ajutorul" poate sta in picioare, ca si cainii carora li se da maneca, nu o vor primi tot timpul.Pe timp ce munca avanseaza, cate o data vor trebui sa execute comanda OUT, cu maneca intacta.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 01, 2011, 11:22:04 AM
orce metoda este buna atat timp cat rezultatele sunt bune dar 80 % din rezultate sunt datorate geneticii Un caine care nu are instinct de lupta cu nici o metoda nu da roade
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 11:23:20 AM
Learn something new every day. lol I am automatically signed in to my photobucket account, doesn't matter who else's photobucket link I hit, it goes to my account. So I signed out and watched it.
I know that police dogs have to be trained to hold one bite (for the most part) to avoid departmental liability from lawsuits.... however, I'm still gonna buy you a football helmet and mask. lol Remember when Riker almost got Jay's face? :laugh:
invat ceva in fiecare zi.intram automat pe photobucket in contul meu, nu conteaza de pe link-ul cui intram.am iesit afara si acum pot vedea clipul
Stiu ca pentru cainii de politie este necesar sa tina o singura muscatura(in cea mai mare parte) ca sa evite conflictele legale ..oricum, tot o sa-ti cumpar o casca de fotbal si o masca.Mai stii cand Riker aproape l-a muscat de fata pe Jay? :laugh:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 01, 2011, 11:26:43 AM
orce metoda este buna atat timp cat rezultatele sunt bune dar 80 % din rezultate sunt datorate geneticii Un caine care nu are instinct de lupta cu nici o metoda nu da roade
any method is good as long you get the result you want but 80% of the results are becouse of good genetics.with a dog that has no fighting instinct no merthod will work
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 11:29:14 AM
Roger, Yes and I bet Jay remembers it as well. The way that played out, im my mind, showed Riker was in a very serious mindset.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 11:37:42 AM
orce metoda este buna atat timp cat rezultatele sunt bune dar 80 % din rezultate sunt datorate geneticii Un caine care nu are instinct de lupta cu nici o metoda nu da roade
de acord! sau da ceva roade, pana la un punct...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 11:43:18 AM
Santos, Thats absolutely correct what you say about 80% of it being genetics. I also believe 80% of being a good trainer for this work is in the ability to see or realize that you don't see this in a young prospect.
santos, ai perfecta dreptate in privinta procentajului legat de genetica. Cred in acelasi timp ca 805 din a fi un dresor bun in acest tip de lucru consta in abilitatea de a vedea sau realiza ca nu poti observa acest lucru intr-un caine tanar.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 11:45:44 AM
Thanks all of you for your quick translations.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 11:50:16 AM
Santos, Thats absolutely correct what you say about 80% of it being genetics. I also believe 80% of being a good trainer for this work is in the ability to see or realize that you don't see this in a young prospect.
that again, I believe is questionable.. I am mentioning Ben again here - he showed high interess in barking at strangers from a very, very early age. At 7 months old I had my first case of a guy knocking at my door, sent by the vet, to look and see that Ben had all his vaccination shots. I guess what i mean is, sometimes a dog shows intense fight drive, even from a very early age. (as he got older, at least 2 individuals ended up in hospital, Ben has been a watch dog at my uncle's company)
din nou, nu cred ca putem generaliza nici asta. il mentionez din nou pe Ben, el a dat semne clare de inst de lupta f dezvoltat de la doar 3 luni de viata. la 7 luni am avut primul caz cu om muscat.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 12:07:28 PM
Zimbris, I am some how missing what you are saying is questionable. It sounds like it was easy to tell he was a good prospect.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 12:09:01 PM
I do not think Dani understood your sentence ...Bob said being a good trainer is the ability to see a good prospect, or recognize that it's not a good prospect.
That's a great prospect from a young age.. very rare, as was my 4 month old Neapolitan Mastiff trying his hardest to bite a man at our front door. Just a baby pup. He was not fooling around and would have bitten him, no doubt. But his best son, Mog, took until 18 months or so to show that kind of intensity and courage. Maybe even longer.
I have mentioned that at 5 months old, the first time I took Drago to the park he advanced on a guy that was walking up to us and the man stopped and turned around. I now believe (knowing Drago) he would have bitten him, but I thought it was very strange at the time.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 12:39:21 PM
ohh.. thank you Roger - Bob, my apologies! My understanding (or should I say missunderstanding) was, I thought you said you can't see the (instinct) qualities in a young prospect (young dog) - that was what I interpreted...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 12:44:01 PM
I also believe 80% of being a good trainer for this work is in the ability to see or realize that you don't see this in a young prospect.
...and so, my understanding was, you don't see (this) particular instinct-based qualities, in a young dog. And I was trying to state that i believe sometimes you do see that.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 01:13:45 PM
Bob's sleeping peacefully in the wilds of Afghanistan...lol I"m sure he'll be back on tomorrow. Simple misinterpretation.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 01:32:42 PM
Bob's sleeping peacefully in the wilds of Afghanistan...lol
:lol: :goodnight: Bob only had a few posts and he already stirred up things.. well, the topic itself is that kind of topic (things being stirred up) - this is what we need here, in order learn from each other! I am honored to have all the guys around here!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 01:54:10 PM
He didn't mean to stir anything up, he was only speaking our native language, which is Texan. :laugh: :rockon:
I actually read it like you did the first time I skimmed it, until I re-read it. But, he could barely hold his eyes open (he told me) and it was after midnight after a somewhat stressful day at work...which is looking for bombs in a war zone! So, I think I'll cut him some slack. :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 02:06:17 PM
oh man.. by "stirring up" I only meant positive feedback! :) this is one good topic and it is very important to go through these things in order to stay away from the sport-like approach to training! Bob brings high quality stuff to the table and actually i noticed you two have another thing in common, appart from dogs that is, and that is you can both articulate very well, your thoughts! I know people like Bobo are looking for this kind of info and, the better it is explained and unpacked, the easier it is to be "ingested", by someone like Bobo. Technical side (terminology) of things is important.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 01, 2011, 03:13:02 PM
I agree, it was this topic and mindset we all have that brought me to Zimbris forum! I love it. I look at this one more than I do my own lately. :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 03:33:38 PM
well honestly this is one special topic. there are those who just have their dog follow a routine training style, indicated by a friend or whatever and then there are those who know exactly why they wanted a working dog and what they want to do with such a dog. Hence the questions and answers style of the topic. real people with real perspective of life that are in search for real dogs ;) - I hope this will turn out to be the unwritten motto of this forum!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 09:05:15 PM
Good morning Romania! Well my morning anyway. I noticed the time on my posts match my computer, not what time it is here. My computer thinks it is in Texas. :rolleyes: Rather than Afghanistan :gunner: lol Any way I would like to go back to the beginning of this post and give my opinions on all the questions raised, because this topic, developing real dogs as apposed to sport dogs is one that is very dear to me. I have spent a lot of my time researching this topic as well as developing and applying my own philosophies to this work. I hope some will find interest and may be can find information that will help them in their evolving programs. I hope to find the same things here. My ideas are ever evolving as well. I feel there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here for me. Bob
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 09:35:54 PM
Man Stopper. All the way back on page 1 you asked about developing dogs using techniques that prevent it from falling into the equipment oriented sport type of dog, but rather a dog that is real. The ways to develop a dog with the right mind set are probably as limitless as ones imagination. The age of the dog to be started, what that particular dog is like, if he has had and how much other (sport like) training are all factors dictating how you should proceed. But the common factor or "spirit of the work" is this: We want the dog focused on the man and not the equipment. I think what keeps a lot of people from seeing it the way I see it, is thinking that prey=equipment and defense=man. I want the dog to see the man as the focus regardless of what he is doing. For in the end, I want him to bite that man when I ask him to, no matter if he is fighting us, running from us, or standing perfectly still. Yet in most training regimens I see, for months and months of training, the decoy slips the sleeve and stands still wile the dog is encouraged to hold the sleeve and pay little to no attention to the passive man. Then a year later they wonder why they have a hard time getting the dog to hit a man standing perfectly still. lol That is what the dog has been taught. They want to start their puppies young and feel like they can not start on the man because he is to big and intimidating. Yet we have all sat on the floor and ran our hand quickly past a litter of puppies. if you keep it moving, before you know it they are all latched onto our shirt sleeve. This of course is in prey, or at least what I call play/prey. So why months later do we start them on puppy tugs? You can move your arm much like you do a puppy tug. Because for decades trainers have been taught prey=equipment and defense=man and puppies are not mature enough for man work there for they must be started in prey and prey=equipment.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:05:14 PM
.... Or as Roger eluded to in his next post, you can wait to start working with a dog until he is older. I have done this often and in fact when I first started in bite work this is how I started most dogs. This is very interesting work and I find few people really understand it any more. In all bite work fe strive for an attitude in the dog that many people label "fight-drive" Like prey lacks intensity and pure defense lacks the speed of action, like the dog is waiting somewhat to "defend." Fight-drive has been said to carry the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. I look at it like I said before as being on a continuum. Prey-----fight drive-----defense. With most young dogs you have little choice but to start in prey and as he matures, push him toward defense bringing him up to fight drive. Starting a grown or nearly grown dog, and keeping with the idea that we want him focused on the man, often times I find it necessary to start him in defense. Like they have a hard time viewing man as prey. We are not "natural" prey for the dog. But I find if I can raise suspicion and mild defensive feelings in the dog and then immediately stimulate him with prey like movements, I can get him there. Not understanding how to do this and dogs not naturally viewing man as prey is why I think grown dogs are often also started on equipment. Bob
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 01, 2011, 10:17:04 PM
Danni (zimbris) right? You hit on something I find to be very true. Police trainers in the USA use training methods that are very sport like in nature. I did some research and talked with a lot of them to try to figure out the history and to understand why. What I figured out was like you said. They do a very one dimensional type of training just like they were taught. They were taught by older police K9 trainers who were taught by other PK9 trainers. So it must be the best they think, with out ever having a broad enough understanding of canine behavior and learning to think further. I believe it traces back to when the use of dogs exploded in the America there was a lack of police who knew anything about advanced dog training. So where did they go? To the also newly developing(in this country) schutzhund clubs.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2011, 10:50:12 PM
good to see you back Bob, I hope you had a good rest ;) Will get back online and some more translating! Am going out now to get some training sessions on video.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 01, 2011, 10:56:52 PM
Hell bobdog and welcome to the Forum. After reading your replys on this topic i see that you have experience and a passion for working dogs. Respect your knowledge and views in regards to training for differant purposes other than Sports/competition. Can relate to where your coming from, when we talk about old school methods of training, and training of today where most just copy each other, and repeat the same old ways.. With prey on arm and puppy mouthing, i first started doing this in the early 80's as a young kid, wearing 2-3 clothing tops. Wrestling my young dog 'Rommel' who loved responding to my padded arm, he grew to be a very good family guard dog.. These days with my last 2 pups, i did very minimal prey (broom/rag chasing) work, rather provide them there own appropriate training object they can play chase in there own time. Genetically if a dog loves to chase, i dont see the point in over doing it in a one on one prey/play training to often.. Same in regards to working a dog who naturally is defensive/suspicious of people at a young age.. 'Less is more' i say when it comes to training this type of dog, his confidence 'Defense drive' will build gradually with less training, developing Fight drive On the other hand if we train on every Sunday we possibly might push the young dog say 14 months old and without knowing, we a creating a defensive dog based on fear.. Especially with a trainer who does not know the "DO'S" and "DONT'S" of training.. Am in a hurry to go out, but look forward for more talks on the 'DO'S and 'DONT'S' of REAL LIFE TRAINING.. c
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 02, 2011, 01:26:16 AM
Man Stopper. All the way back on page 1 you asked about developing dogs using techniques that prevent it from falling into the equipment oriented sport type of dog, but rather a dog that is real. The ways to develop a dog with the right mind set are probably as limitless as ones imagination. The age of the dog to be started, what that particular dog is like, if he has had and how much other (sport like) training are all factors dictating how you should proceed. But the common factor or "spirit of the work" is this: We want the dog focused on the man and not the equipment. I think what keeps a lot of people from seeing it the way I see it, is thinking that prey=equipment and defense=man. I want the dog to see the man as the focus regardless of what he is doing. For in the end, I want him to bite that man when I ask him to, no matter if he is fighting us, running from us, or standing perfectly still. Yet in most training regimens I see, for months and months of training, the decoy slips the sleeve and stands still wile the dog is encouraged to hold the sleeve and pay little to no attention to the passive man. Then a year later they wonder why they have a hard time getting the dog to hit a man standing perfectly still. lol That is what the dog has been taught. They want to start their puppies young and feel like they can not start on the man because he is to big and intimidating. Yet we have all sat on the floor and ran our hand quickly past a litter of puppies. if you keep it moving, before you know it they are all latched onto our shirt sleeve. This of course is in prey, or at least what I call play/prey. So why months later do we start them on puppy tugs? You can move your arm much like you do a puppy tug. Because for decades trainers have been taught prey=equipment and defense=man and puppies are not mature enough for man work there for they must be started in prey and prey=equipment.
Man Stopper, la inceputul topicului ai intrebat despre tehnici menite a evita fixarea cainelui pe echipament, si formarea lui pentru realitate.Modurile de a forma un caine la modul corect sunt la fel de limitate ca si mintea fiecaruia.Varsta cainelui, ce fel de caine este,daca a mai facut sau cat de multe sedinte de sport a facut inainte,sunt factorii care dicteaza cum ar trebui sa procedezi.Dar factorul comun, sau "Spiritul Muncii " este: Vrem cainele fixat pe om si nu pe echipament.Cred ca ceea ce-i face pe oameni sa vada lucrurile diferit de felul cum le vad eu este ideea ca Prada=Echipament si Aparare=Om.Vreau sa am un caine care sa-l vada pe om ca obiectiv indiferent de ceea ce face.Pentru ca in final vreau sa-l muste pe acel om,daca-i spun eu, indiferent de ceea ce face, fie ca luptam cu el, fie ca fuge de noi, sau sta pur si simplu neclintit.Totusi vad in majoritatea tipurilor de dresaj ca "ajutorul" ofera mansonul luni la rand, si in timp ce el sta linistit , cainele este incurajat sa tina maneca si sa fie prea putin atent la omul care nu misca.si dupa un an se mira de ce au probleme cu un caine care nu este capabil sa muste un om ce sta perfect nemiscat.tocmai asta au invatat cainele.vor sa inceapa lucrul cu un caine foarte tanar, dar nu pot incepe direct pe om , deoarece este prea mare si intimidant.cu toate astea cu no toti am stat pe podea bagand mana intr-un cuib de puiuti.si daca o miscam putin ne trezim ca au si facut priza pe mana.Asta desigur este in prada, sau ceea ce numesc eu prada/joaca.Si atunci de ce cateva luni mai tarziu incepem lucrul cu ei pe batoane?poti sa misti mana cam la fel cum poti misca batonul pentru pui.fiindca decenii la rand dresorii au fost invatati ca echipament=prada, iar aparare=om iar puiutii nu sunt destul de maturi pentru munca pe om si de aceea ii initiem pe echipamnt , in prada
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 02, 2011, 06:23:12 AM
acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte. in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora
[youtube]l0vGznrR7wc[/youtube]
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 02, 2011, 07:02:50 AM
acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte. in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora
in this clip 2 dogs(male-female) are 11 months old with 5 sessions of agression, 2 females 8 months old with 7 sessions, and another male 11 months old with 2 sessions
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 02, 2011, 08:01:42 AM
.... Or as Roger eluded to in his next post, you can wait to start working with a dog until he is older. I have done this often and in fact when I first started in bite work this is how I started most dogs. This is very interesting work and I find few people really understand it any more. In all bite work fe strive for an attitude in the dog that many people label "fight-drive" Like prey lacks intensity and pure defense lacks the speed of action, like the dog is waiting somewhat to "defend." Fight-drive has been said to carry the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. I look at it like I said before as being on a continuum. Prey-----fight drive-----defense. With most young dogs you have little choice but to start in prey and as he matures, push him toward defense bringing him up to fight drive. Starting a grown or nearly grown dog, and keeping with the idea that we want him focused on the man, often times I find it necessary to start him in defense. Like they have a hard time viewing man as prey. We are not "natural" prey for the dog. But I find if I can raise suspicion and mild defensive feelings in the dog and then immediately stimulate him with prey like movements, I can get him there. Not understanding how to do this and dogs not naturally viewing man as prey is why I think grown dogs are often also started on equipment. Bob
sau cun Roger a uitat sa spuna, poti astepta sa lucrezi cu cainele pana se maturizeaza.Am facut lucrul asta deseori, de fapt cand am inceput prima data asa faceam cu majoritatea cainilor.Asta este o munca foarte interesanta si cred ca sunt destul de putini oameni care inteleg cu adevarat lucrul asta.In tot ce inseamna agresivitate speram sa avem o atitudine in caine pe care multe persoane o catalogheaza drept "instinct de lupta".Ca si cum prazii ii lipseste intensitatea iar "apararii" ii lipseste viteza de actiune, ca si cum cainele respectiv asteapta sa apere ceva.Fight drive( instinctul de lupta) se spune ca are "avansarea" din prada si intensitatea "apararii".eu vad lucrul acesta dupa cum am mai spus un continuu prada---lupta---aparare.Cu puii nu prea ai de ales decat sa incepi in prada si pe timp ce se maturizeaza , sa-l impingi in "aparare" care conduce spre "instinctul de lupta".Incepand cu un caine adult sau aproape adult, si pastrand ideea de a-l fixa pe om, de multe ori ma vad in situatia de a incepe in "aparare".Ca si cum ar avea dificultati in a vedea omul ca si pe o prada.noi nu suntem o prada naturala pentru caine.Dar consider ca daca reusesc sa trezesc suspiciunea si cat de cat sentimente de aparare/precautie in caine apoi il lucrez prin miscari caracteristice lucrului "in prada", atunci pot ajunge la scopul meu.Cainii sunt adesea initiati pe echipament datorita neinelegerii modului cum sa facem lucrul acesta si datorita faptului ca omul nu este vazut de caine ca pe o prada naturala.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 02, 2011, 04:19:38 PM
Just got back in town, I will write later, thanks so much for posting, Santos...be right back!
acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte. in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora
[youtube]l0vGznrR7wc[/youtube]
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 02, 2011, 06:25:16 PM
Looks cool, Santos, I support that training! Do you happen to have any video of Greif being agitated? Or working in muzzle.... ??
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 02, 2011, 07:32:28 PM
Looks cool, Santos, I support that training! Do you happen to have any video of Greif being agitated? Or working in muzzle.... ??
arata super Santos, sunt de acord cu tipul asta de antrenament!Ai cumva vreun clip cu sedintele de agitare ale lui Greif? Sau cu el la lucru cu botnita...?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 02, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
Very good work there by these young one's, especially the 3 rd K9 who i think is a bitch.. She's really nasty and 'FULL ON'..!!! The last big male shows avoidance and hesitates, just wondering is he the one with only 2 training sessions.. Thanks Santos for the video, as it shows and helps us to get a better understanding of individual character and working performance. Am tempted to give Casso one of these sessions, as he is 10 months now.. These dogs are of same age and we have also seen Remus and Viner being worked at similar age..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 02, 2011, 11:25:21 PM
Man stopper I don't see anything wrong necessarily in toys and grip work with the owner/handler. But I don't bring a dog up doing these things with anyone but the handler. I also want to make sure to keep this in balance with man work. What I mean by this is If the dog has been turned on to a "bad guy" and you pull a toy out of your pocket, the desire for the bad guy should be higher. if the dog in this situation would just as soon play with the toy, he/she is "out of balance." Dogs I raise as dual purpose police dogs have to like a toy, it part of what drives their search work. But if the decoy were to throw a toy at this same dog, he should have no interest in it.
I don't think the "out" is a sport thing. I also don't think it is impossible in a real encounter. Much more difficult in some cases for the dog. But not impossible. I know where Roger is coming from when he says he thinks a dog who will out is not as reliable on the grip. A lot of hogdog/bulldog people share this opinion. and training the reliable out without a dog anticipating it and with it having no effect on his grip is an art.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 02, 2011, 11:28:07 PM
Santos, Very impressive young dogs! :ihi:
Santos, foarte impresionanti cainii astia tineri :ihi:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 02, 2011, 11:49:22 PM
Kangdanlin. You said, "I like to make the dog hate the helper" and then I teach him to bite. I take this approach with mature dogs starting in bite work. but when starting young dogs with strong prey, I do it the other way around. Do you wait then until a dog is almost grown?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 12:36:50 AM
Quote i am really glad that Bob's strong point is to recuperate sport dogs for the reality, this means he can give some very competent advice also regarding the "helper workout" or the "helper behaviour" too..what are the biggest mistakes he usualy has to correct...i think this is maybe the biggest subject, as the helper can make or brake your dog!
Some of the things I have learned to fix as well as prevent are, equipment fixation/not viewing the decoy as his focus, aggression to friendly fire, wanting to "look"(with his head up) in the field, when we need him to track, trying to search(building search) with his eyes and tracking ground disturbances instead of man-scent.
The key to fixing equipment fixation is to fix it first working in prey. You see a lot of people trying to fix it first in defense. After slipping the sleeve, they will place it between the dog and the decoy. The decoy puts a lot of defensive pressure on the dog. He will in most cases shift his focus from the sleeve to the decoy in defense. People think this is good. They say, "the dog is willing to leave the sleeve for the man." Yes, but it is situational and it is in defense of "his sleeve". Notice in many cases the moment the decoy turns and starts to leave, the dogs focus goes back to the sleeve. Like he drove the man away from his true desire and focus "the sleeve". Increasing further his desire for "the sleeve". The way I like to fix it takes some time. I start by getting the dog to understand the decoy dying. not slipping the equipment any more but by gradually and with patients lifting the dog off the dead decoy. I use this opportunity to praise the dog on the bite, letting him counter and shake while the decoy is dying with much praise. Lifting and letting him back down to counter and shake. Each time I hold up longer(also a good work out for the handler,lol) until finally the dog has to let go. In the next step I will go to some run away bites with a soft sleeve or a suite jacket and a hidden sleeve. I often do this at the end of a track, (I try to work on several things at the same time. There is so much to work on.) When the dog catches the man, bite on the sleeve or suit, I slip it and keep running, putting as much prey movement as I can. The handler gives the send command and encourages the dog to pursue the fleeing/flailing man. If needed the decoy can run in kind of a circle should the dog not seem to want to chase at first, It is funny to see sometimes the dog chasing the decoy with the sleeve in his mouth. Sometimes not dropping it until the last second. I have the handler slowing him a bit with the long line. Eventually the light goes off and the dog drops the dead sleeve to bite the live decoy. This is followed by a rewarding fight followed by a dying decoy and much praise from the handler. I let him hold this bite for a long time. After some repetitions most dogs will start dropping it pretty quickly. I feel like this is the best approach because it is the dogs prey drive that makes him want the sleeve in the first place. Prey drive is one of the strongest drives in most dogs. Especially Mals. lol
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 12:44:00 AM
Kangdanlin
regarding to bite development, i've seen in a site, a police helper describing his way of doing things...he started the dog in prey (chasing and the first bite of the helper), and then he would work the dog only in defense...muzzle...when the dog worked good in defense he would start the fighting drive development,by working the dog in prey again(atac the running decoy from behind) ..i would like to know what you think about this
This, in my opinion, is basically correct, with one exception. And may be it is wording thing. But I would have a hard time saying I ever truly work a dog only in defense. Even when I am working a dog in defense, some prey stimulation is thrown in there if only for moments at a time. By the same token, when ai am working a dog in prey there are often "moments" that the stimulation I am giving is defense.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 03, 2011, 12:50:50 AM
Kangdanlin. You said, "I like to make the dog hate the helper" and then I teach him to bite. I take this approach with mature dogs starting in bite work. but when starting young dogs with strong prey, I do it the other way around. Do you wait then until a dog is almost grown?
Kangdanlin ai spus"incerc sa-l fac sa urasca "ajutorul" si apoi il invat sa muste.Inteleg ca metoda asta o faci cu caini maturi, dar cand incep cu un caine tanar cu instinct puternic de prada, eu fac exact invers.astepti pana ce cainele este aproape matur?
i just translated what Santos said in that post and i agree, with personal protection dogs, this is the way to do it...so far with my dog(greif von bismakc) i avoited this type of work..i did it only 2 or 3 times, about a month difference in time for each session...and only becouse people asked me to see how the dog reacts, if he still got the nerve so far i tried to get him used to all types of conditions, also i played alot with him, made him chase the ball, tought him to swim, to travel by car and simple things like this...if you enter his topic you can see everything i did with him so far next weekend i will take him to Santos to start training for personal protection
doar am tradus ceea ce a spus Santos in postul respectiv si sunt de acord, cu un caine de paza si protectie, asa ar trebui procedat...pana acum cu turbolino am evitat tipul asta de munca...am facut doar de vreo 2, 3 ori, cam la diferenta de o luna ..si asta numai pentru ca lumea vroia sa vada cum reactioneaza, daca mai are nerv pana acum am incercat sa-l obisnuiesc cu tot felul de conditii, m-am jucat cu el foarte mult, l-am provocat sa vaneze mingiuta, a invatat sa inoate, l-am invatat cu masina si alte lucruri simple ...daca intri pe topic la el o sa poti vedea cam tot ce am facut cu el pana acum weekendul viitor il voi duce la Santos sa inceapa dresajul de paza si protectie
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 03, 2011, 12:58:55 AM
Danni (zimbris) right? You hit on something I find to be very true. Police trainers in the USA use training methods that are very sport like in nature. I did some research and talked with a lot of them to try to figure out the history and to understand why. What I figured out was like you said. They do a very one dimensional type of training just like they were taught. They were taught by older police K9 trainers who were taught by other PK9 trainers. So it must be the best they think, with out ever having a broad enough understanding of canine behavior and learning to think further. I believe it traces back to when the use of dogs exploded in the America there was a lack of police who knew anything about advanced dog training. So where did they go? To the also newly developing(in this country) schutzhund clubs.
Dani, ai atins un lucru pe care eu il consider foarte adevarat.Politistii in SUA folosesc metode foarte similare cu cele de sport.Am cautat putin si am vorbit cu destul de multi dintre ei ca sa inteleg istoria si motivul acestui lucru.Ce am aflat este exact cum spui tu.ei fac un singur tip de dresaj , exact asa cum au fost invatati.Au fost invatati de catre politisti mai vechi care la randul lor au invatat de la altii dinaintea lor.Si probabil asta cred ei ca este cel mai bine, fara sa fie nevoiti vreodata sa inteleaga comportamentul canin sau sa invete si sa gandeasca mai departe. Cred ca merge mai departe pana la punctul in care folosirea cainilor a eplodat in america, cand era o lipsa de politisti care sa stie ceva despre dresajul avansat.Si unde s-au adresat mai departe? ..la noile cluburi de Sch ce se dezvoltau in tara.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 03, 2011, 01:06:00 AM
bobdog,
I like to use toy(tug) as a rerward for search/find items, this is very enjoyable for Casso where its fun and games. But as for the 'bad guy' work i would not want any distraction by using a toy as 'reward'. He should differentiate between fun/games and Eg Protection work. The distraction could be a 'stick' which a decoy brings out, and K9 responds by aiming for the weapon. With chasing moving objects i like the dog to be focused on me, and even if i throw 100 objects the dog is within close range to grip. In future this main object would be "helper" in suit, where the 'out' command would be used, only would be just prior to the dog losing drive.. So there can be a pause/break (10 - 15 sec) before releasing onto moving object (helper) once again to hold with minimal growling.GAME OVER Its so easy with genetics to reach our goals, especially for protection work, but you guys are right there is a few differant paths to choose to help us get there..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 03, 2011, 01:14:55 AM
Hell bobdog and welcome to the Forum. After reading your replys on this topic i see that you have experience and a passion for working dogs. Respect your knowledge and views in regards to training for differant purposes other than Sports/competition. Can relate to where your coming from, when we talk about old school methods of training, and training of today where most just copy each other, and repeat the same old ways.. With prey on arm and puppy mouthing, i first started doing this in the early 80's as a young kid, wearing 2-3 clothing tops. Wrestling my young dog 'Rommel' who loved responding to my padded arm, he grew to be a very good family guard dog.. These days with my last 2 pups, i did very minimal prey (broom/rag chasing) work, rather provide them there own appropriate training object they can play chase in there own time. Genetically if a dog loves to chase, i dont see the point in over doing it in a one on one prey/play training to often.. Same in regards to working a dog who naturally is defensive/suspicious of people at a young age.. 'Less is more' i say when it comes to training this type of dog, his confidence 'Defense drive' will build gradually with less training, developing Fight drive On the other hand if we train on every Sunday we possibly might push the young dog say 14 months old and without knowing, we a creating a defensive dog based on fear.. Especially with a trainer who does not know the "DO'S" and "DONT'S" of training.. Am in a hurry to go out, but look forward for more talks on the 'DO'S and 'DONT'S' of REAL LIFE TRAINING..
salut bobdog si bun venit pe forum, dupa ce am citit ceea ce ai scris , imi dau seama ca ai ceva experienta si pasiune pentru caini iti respect cunostintele si parerile referitor la dresajul pentru alte scopuri decat cel de sport/competitie Stiu ce vrei sa spui cand vorbesti de metode vechi de dresaj, si dresajul de astazi, cand toata lumea copiaza ceea ce fac ceilalti, si repeta aceleasi greseli. tot asa am inceput si eu cand eram pusti , prin anii 80, cu haine pe antebrat.Luptandu-ma cu tanarul meu caine Rommel, caruia ii placea sa sara pe bratul meu acoperit,si care pana la urma a ajuns sa fie un foarte bun caine de paza pentru familie. Zilele astea cu ultimii 2 pui, am facut foarte putina prada(cu matura/carpa), si i-am lasat pe ei sa se joace cu propria lor jucarie cum au chef. Daca genetic un caine arata interes pentru vanatoare nu vad un motiv sa fac lucrul asta excesiv prin jocuri unu la unu.Acelasi lucru si cu cainii care prezinta suspiciune/aparare inca de tineri.Mai putin inseamna de fapt mai mult in ceea ce priveste tipul asta de caine,increderea lui, instinctul de aparare se vor maturiza treptat cu mai putin antrenament, si se vor transforma in instinct de lupta. pe partea cealalta , daca antrenam cainele numai o data pe saptamana,putem impinge cainele sa zicem de 14 luni sa devina un caine defenziv datorita fricii...mai ales daca avem si un dresor care nu stie ce sa faca si ce sa nu faca foarte bine. acum trebuie sa plec, abia astept sa continuam discutiile despre ce trebuie facut si ce nu trebuie facut in ce priveste dresajul pentru realitate
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 03, 2011, 01:19:36 AM
Very good work there by these young one's, especially the 3 rd K9 who i think is a bitch.. She's really nasty and 'FULL ON'..!!! The last big male shows avoidance and hesitates, just wondering is he the one with only 2 training sessions.. Thanks Santos for the video, as it shows and helps us to get a better understanding of individual character and working performance. Am tempted to give Casso one of these sessions, as he is 10 months now.. These dogs are of same age and we have also seen Remus and Viner being worked at similar age..
foarte bine lucreaza micutii, in special al 3-lea care cred ca e o catea. E o catea foarte rea si "hotarata" ultimul mascul mare arata ceva evitare si ezitari, ma intreb daca o fi cainele de care ziceti ca are numai 2 sesiuni de antrenament.. Multumesc Santos pentru clip, astfel putem vedea si intelege mai bine caracteristicile individuale si performantele de lucru ale fiecaruia. Sunt tentat sa incep si cu Casso cateva sesiuni de genul asta, acum ca se apropie de 10 luni.Cainii astia au varste apropiate si ii avem de asemeni pe Remus si Viner care lucreaza de la varste similare...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
va salut, am ceva probleme tehnice si nu pot folosi calculatorul. sper sa rezolv problema astzai.
hey guys, I'm not able to use my computer as I got some technical problems at home, will get this sorted soon.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 04:55:59 AM
My power keeps going in and out, computer shutting off. We aren't used to COLD!!!!
watch out - stuff like that could kill some of the computer parts, such as the mother board - be careful!! It's probably better to wait until this problem goes away (or maybe it's a constant thing..?)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 05:44:51 AM
procesez acum o filmare facuta in scopul contributiei in topic, din partea lui Dux. Pana cand e gata materialul video postez cateva poze (din aceeasi filmare am postat poze in topicul lui Nero si cel al Indiei)
I am processing some training footage Dux would like me to post here to contribute to the discussions. For now i will post some images, i also posted some images, from the same video, in Nerp and India's topic.
un bun prieten, Ender a close friend of ours, Ender
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 03, 2011, 06:07:31 AM
Ready set ACTION. Weather looks not too bad, nice and cool for a heated confrontation or two.. Looking forward to some new clips..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 03, 2011, 07:04:34 AM
Quote
When the dog catches the man, bite on the sleeve or suit, I slip it and keep running, putting as much prey movement as I can. The handler gives the send command and encourages the dog to pursue the fleeing/flailing man. If needed the decoy can run in kind of a circ After some repetitions most dogs will start dropping it pretty quickly. I feel like this is the best approach because it is the dogs prey drive that makes him want the sleeve in the first place. Prey drive is one of the strongest drives in most dogs. Especially Mals. lol
Yes prey drive is the strongest, especially in Mals.. Where and when does fight drive come into play ? Can we say that a high fight drive K9 will focus on Man and naturally let go of sleeve and pursue 'helper'. So would it be fair to say that 'fight drive' is what we're after, rather than prey drive ?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 07:16:24 AM
postarea asta e din partea lui Dux, el va veni cu comentariile corespunzatoare. urmeaza si clipul cu Nero
this is on behalf of Dux, he will post some comments later on. Video of nero following in a few minutes
Happy, 1 feb 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4YHgvpRYis
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 03, 2011, 07:33:37 AM
Approaches with confidence and looks positive for early stages of training.. Have you considered doing hidden sleeve for more of a focus on MAn ?
Initiaza lucrul cu incredere si arata bine pt etapte timpurii de antrenament ati luat in considerare si lucrul cu mansonul ascuns, in vederea focusarii mai bine asupra OMULUI?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 07:41:21 AM
Approaches with confidence and looks positive for early stages of training.. Have you considered doing hidden sleeve for more of a focus on MAn ?
Dux told me yesterday he wants to comment on making use of hidden sleeve, he will be posting later today
Dux deja mi-a spus ca vrea sa comenteze asupra folosirii mansonului ascuns, va posta ceva mai tarziu
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 07:42:33 AM
Nero 2.02.2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpTe6m8lMZI
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 03, 2011, 07:46:07 AM
Is it me, or isn't it VERY cool to finally see real work on a dog board...with training focused on something besides fantasy? Especially with this fine breed, almost ruined by people breeding away from reality? Very cool Dux...hope to see more and more videos.
oare numai eu ma bucur sa vad lucru real in tr-un forum cu caini.. cu antrenamente focalizate pe altceva decat fantezii..? mai ales cu aceasta rasa frumoasa, aproape ruinata de cei care cresc departe de realitate.. F bine Dux.. sper sa mai vedem clipuri.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 03, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Dux is no short guy to wrestle, Nero done well.. Would it be better that Dux played dead at the end of session, to reward Nero for winning the wrestle..
Dux nu e chiar scund, te-ai descurcat bine Nero.. Nu ar fi mai bine ca Dux (Ender de fapt) sa fii ramas "mort" la sol la finalul exercitiului, pt a-l recompensa pe Nero?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 07:58:31 AM
Dux is no short guy to wrestle, Nero done well.. Would it be better that Dux played dead at the end of session, to reward Nero for winning the wrestle..
MS, Dux is the handler, ENDER is the agitator ;) and yes, he is taller than both Dux and myself. i asked Ender to join the forum and sat a few words about Ben ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 09:49:34 AM
Nice work, and what fine looking GSD's! Great muzzle work, very good job of decoying. You are lucky to have use of this one! :ihi:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 10:01:15 AM
Cheers Bob! Your comments are highly valued! Feel free to judge "to the bone" what you see in the videos ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 10:39:29 AM
To the bone? :think: Really, :devil: I can be pretty critical and very opinionated. Well here goes. Really very good work! I am so impressed with the things I see in your dogs that I would tend to believe are genetic also! :CG: Really only one little thing I noticed. One at one point in the first video, the sleeve was slipped and the decoy became passive and the action seemed to stop for no other reason than that. In my opinion if the dog is sent, and the sleeve is slipped and the dog has not been given a control command, ie platz, here etc, the dog should still be trying to get the guy. You have not called the dog off and If I asked a dog to get some one, wether some article of their dress has come off or not, wether they have gone passive or not, if I have not given the dog an opposing command, he should still be trying to get the guy.And I would want my decoy to help teach this by, after a shot time of being passive, re-stimulate the dog by stinging with the whip, or going into some kind of stimulating motion.
"pana la os"? :think: pe bune? :devil: pot fi destul de critic din cand in cand. Pai hai sa spun. Lucru f bun! Sunt atat de impresionat de ceea ce vad in cainii vostri incat sunt tentat sa cred ca e vb de genetica! :CG: Dar am observat un lucru. In primul clip, la un momentdat s-a eliberat mansonul iar atentatorul era pasiv, motiv din care toata actiunea parea sa se fi oprit. In opinia mea daca patrupedul e lansat, iar mansonul eliberat iar cainelui nu i s-a dat comanda de lasare, cainele ar trebui sa incerce in continuare sa se duca pe om / atentator. Nu ati comandat cainelui sa lase iar daca as cere unui caine sa atace pe cineva, fie ca un articol de imbracaminte al acelui 'cineva' ar cadea etc, daca a devenit pasiv sau nu, daca nu am dat cainelui o comanda de lasare, el ar trebui sa incerce in continuare sa prinda persoana. Si as vrea ca atentatorul sa ajute in acest sens, dupa ce a stat pasiv cateva momente, sa re-stimuleze cainele cu ajutorul biciului sau sa faca anumite miscari atataoare.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 10:42:38 AM
let me just say this before i translate the post above - yes, to the bone!! ;) Dux will love to hear your view!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 10:52:48 AM
Bob, that is exactly the point Dux is planning to make later on. That is what he is teaching the dog to do in the video - keep the focus on the MAN by having the agitator re-attack with the use of the whip. Oh well, I will let Dux make the comments. :)
exact asta vrea Dux sa arate prin acest clip. sa mentina focusul pe OM, atentatorul foloseste biciul pt a tine cainele "conectat" pe el, nu pe manson. dar il voi lasa pe Dux sa comenteze mai mult :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 10:55:50 AM
:beer:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 11:02:30 AM
beer2
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 12:02:51 PM
I enjoyed it Ya'll, but I must sleep. :goodnight:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
well get a good rest Bob! I'm sure you'll find more stuff to read through when you're back online. :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: dux on February 03, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
Approaches with confidence and looks positive for early stages of training.. Have you considered doing hidden sleeve for more of a focus on MAn ?
ati luat in considerare si lucrul cu mansonul ascuns, in vederea focusarii mai bine asupra OMULUI?
,,Mansonul ascuns'' reprezinta un sablon pe care cainele il simte olfactiv.daca folosesti mansonul ascuns de cateva ori cainele va asocia mirosul lui si chiar daca il ascunzi tot il simte si isi va orienta atacul ca si pe un manson ,,la vedere''.Noi ne lasam inselati de faptul ca daca facem un antrenament cu un manson acoperit de maneca unei haine ,credem ca cainele nu realizeaza acest lucru.sa nu uitam ca aceste animale ,,vad cu nasul''. La fel si cu costumul.In opinia mea costumul reprezinta un manson de dimensiuni mai mari. Eu focusez cainele folosindu-ma de atitudinea infractorului dupa ce elibereaza ,,sablonul''.cainele trebuie sa invete sa reactioneze cu fermitate la infractorul cu atitudine ostila fata de el.atitudinea trebuie sa declanseze atacul si nu prezenta unui echipament anume. recompensarea cainelui nu inseamna neaparat,, muscatura finala''.eu definesc recompensa ca fiind acel ceva care incurajeaza cainele.fuga infractorului reprezinta pentru caine o recompensa foarte buna .la acest tip de recompensa cainele ramane cu o mica frustrare pe care poti s-o speculezi la urmatoarea lansare.muscatura din frustrare este mai violenta decat muscatura creata din sentimentul ca animalul isi capata mereu echipamentul.
The "hidden sleeve" is yet another pattern, intercepted by the dog by smell. if you use the hidden sleve several times, the dog will memorize its sense and even though hidden, he will place his grip on it just like on a normal sleeve. We sometimes think that by using a hidden sleeve the dog does not know it is there but let's remember dogs 'see' very well with their nose. Goes the same with the bite suit. In my view, that is just another 'sleeve", but at bigger size. I focus the dog by using the agitator's attitude, once the dog outs the "pattern" / (sleeve etc). The dog needs to learn to firmly react to the hostile agitator. It that attitude that generates the right response, not a piece of equipment. reward doesn't necessarily mean "final bite / grip". I define the 'reward' by that element that brings encouragement to the dog. The dog is rewarded when seeing the agitator flee. As a result of this type of reward the dog gets frustrated of which one can make use with the following bite. A "frustration" based bite is more powerful than that which somes from the thought that the animal will always get the piece of equipment.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: dux on February 03, 2011, 01:51:53 PM
To the bone? :think: Really, :devil: I can be pretty critical and very opinionated. Well here goes. Really very good work! I am so impressed with the things I see in your dogs that I would tend to believe are genetic also! :CG: Really only....................................... [/color]
In prima parte am lasat intentionat cainele sa reactioneze natural.fara sa intervina infractorul.dupa cum se vede ,catelul lasa mansonul si incepe sa-l miroasa.in partea a doua cainele dupa ce musca nu mai este lasat sa-l miroasa.infractorul vine peste el cu biciul si astfel cainele reactioneaza asupra lui.recompensarea se face prin fuga infractorului (ceea ce-i creeaza frustrare ).In urmatoarea priza frustrarea il determina sa fie mai ,,furios'' pe manson. atacul in botnita reprezinta in opinia mea cel mai bun exercitiu pentru un caine de strada. cand voi avea timp am sa postez mai mult pe acest subiect.
In the first part of the clip I intentionally let the dog to react naturally, with the agitator doing nothing in that regard. As you can see, the dog drops the sleeve and starts sniffing it. In the 2nd part, the dog is not let to just sniff it. The agitator returns with the whip and so the dog reacts. The rewards takes place by having the agitator flee (which generates a dosage of frustration). Then with the following bite, out of that frustration comes a more "mad" grip. In my own view the muzzle work is the best exercise for a street/real dog. I will post more on this when I find some time.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 03, 2011, 02:25:32 PM
Great work, Dux.. Bob is my trainer for my dogs...and I respect and listen to him. I really like listening (closely) to you and Santos and Dani also for these genetically blessed German Shepherds.
This is GOOD work. Can't wait to hear Manstopper, Bobo.my bud Kangdanlin, and others..., and especially our great great bud Leo that works real security...can't wait to hear us all chime in on real work...this is a great board.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 03, 2011, 08:17:34 PM
... In my own view the muzzle work is the best exercise for a street/real dog. I will post more on this when I find some time.
This is the statement that we believe and we do a lot this type of training once the said dog "pass" through the level of bite-work, apart from muzzle-work, we do a lot of so-called civil agitation too. Once in the blue-moon, we hit hard on the dogs!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIAToNDppPI[/youtube] The agitation
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgieTN7NwA0[/youtube] The muzzle work!
Great work, Dux.. Bob is my trainer for my dogs...and I respect and listen to him. I really like listening (closely) to you and Santos and Dani also for these genetically blessed German Shepherds.
This is GOOD work. Can't wait to hear Manstopper, Bobo.my bud Kangdanlin, and others..., and especially our great great bud Leo that works real security...can't wait to hear us all chime in on real work...this is a great board.
I may have my own view when come to dog-working and many of the times, I have difficulties in expressing myself to have a proper description. Let me see if I can at least drop to share some later. Reading and learning from someone else is always something that I always do ;) :cool: :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 01:07:39 AM
I like to use toy(tug) as a rerward for search/find items, this is very enjoyable for Casso where its fun and games. But as for the 'bad guy' work i would not want any distraction by using a toy as 'reward'. He should differentiate between fun/games and Eg Protection work. The distraction could be a 'stick' which a decoy brings out, and K9 responds by aiming for the weapon. With chasing moving objects i like the dog to be focused on me, and even if i throw 100 objects the dog is within close range to grip. In future this main object would be "helper" in suit, where the 'out' command would be used, only would be just prior to the dog losing drive.. So there can be a pause/break (10 - 15 sec) before releasing onto moving object (helper) once again to hold with minimal growling.GAME OVER Its so easy with genetics to reach our goals, especially for protection work, but you guys are right there is a few differant paths to choose to help us get there..
bobdog, imi place sa folosesc jucaria(batonul) ca recompensa pentru cautari, este foarte distractiv pentru Casso . Dar in ceea ce priveste lucrul cu infractor nu doresc sa am parte de distractii prin folosirea jucariei ca si recompensa.ar trebui sa faca diferenta intre joaca si treaba serioasa. Distractia ar putea sa fie un bat pe care ajutorul il aduce, iar cainele sa raspunda dorind sa elimine arma. Cu obiecte de vanat imi place sa am un caine atent la mine, si chiar daca il arung 100 obiecte cainele este foarte aproape de prindere. In viitor aest obiect principal va fi Ajutorul in costum, iar comanda OUt va fi folosita, doar putin inainte ca el sa-si piarda interesul. Deci poate fi o pauza de 10-15 secunde, inainte de a-l trimite spre un obiect in miscare/Ajutor din nou asa incat sa protesteze cat mai putin.GAME OVER este asa de usor datorita geneticii sa ne atingem scopurile, special in protectie,dar aveti dreptate cand spuneti ca sunt cai diferite pentru a ne ajuta sa ajungem acolo unde dorim...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 01:17:54 AM
Man stopper I don't see anything wrong necessarily in toys and grip work with the owner/handler. But I don't bring a dog up doing these things with anyone but the handler. I also want to make sure to keep this in balance with man work. What I mean by this is If the dog has been turned on to a "bad guy" and you pull a toy out of your pocket, the desire for the bad guy should be higher. if the dog in this situation would just as soon play with the toy, he/she is "out of balance." Dogs I raise as dual purpose police dogs have to like a toy, it part of what drives their search work. But if the decoy were to throw a toy at this same dog, he should have no interest in it.
I don't think the "out" is a sport thing. I also don't think it is impossible in a real encounter. Much more difficult in some cases for the dog. But not impossible. I know where Roger is coming from when he says he thinks a dog who will out is not as reliable on the grip. A lot of hogdog/bulldog people share this opinion. and training the reliable out without a dog anticipating it and with it having no effect on his grip is an art.
Man stopper Nu este obligatoriu ca folosirea jucariilor in protectie impreuna cu conductorul/stapanul.dar nu introduc lucrurile acestea decat cu stapanul/conductorul.De asemeni incerc sa mentin un echilibru in ce priveste lucrul pe om.ce vreau sa spun cu asta este ca daca ai un caine transformat in "baiat rau"si tu scoti o jucarie din buzunar, dorinta de a prinde infractorul ar trebui sa fie mai mare.daca in situatia respectiva caineme mai degraba s-ar juca, atunci acela nu este un caine echilibrat.Cainii crestuti de mine ca si caini de politie cu scop dublu, trebuie sa fie atrasi de jucarii, ca parte a instinctului pentru munca de detectie.Dar daca Ajutorul ar fi sa arunce spre ei cu jucaria, nu ar trebui sa fie interesati de ea. Comanda OUT nu este o comanda pentru sport.de aemeni nu cred ca este imposibil ca intr-o situatie reala sa o folosesc.este foarte dificil de folosit in unele cazuri dar nu imposibil.Stiu ce vrea sa spuna Roger cand scria ca un caine care lasa la comanda nu e destul de hotarat.multi oameni din lumea cainilor de vanatoare impartasesc opinia asta.iar dresajul unui "LASA" de incredere fara anticipare din partea caineluisi fara sa-i influenteze muscatura este o arta
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 02:09:32 AM
Quote i am really glad that Bob's strong point is to recuperate sport dogs for the reality, this means he can give some very competent advice also regarding the "helper workout" or the "helper behaviour" too..what are the biggest mistakes he usualy has to correct...i think this is maybe the biggest subject, as the helper can make or brake your dog! Some of the things I have learned to fix as well as prevent are, equipment fixation/not viewing the decoy as his focus, aggression to friendly fire, wanting to "look"(with his head up) in the field, when we need him to track, trying to search(building search) with his eyes and tracking ground disturbances instead of man-scent. The key to fixing equipment fixation is to fix it first working in prey. You see a lot of people trying to fix it first in defense. After slipping the sleeve, they will place it between the dog and the decoy. The decoy puts a lot of defensive pressure on the dog. He will in most cases shift his focus from the sleeve to the decoy in defense. People think this is good. They say, "the dog is willing to leave the sleeve for the man." Yes, but it is situational and it is in defense of "his sleeve". Notice in many cases the moment the decoy turns and starts to leave, the dogs focus goes back to the sleeve. Like he drove the man away from his true desire and focus "the sleeve". Increasing further his desire for "the sleeve". The way I like to fix it takes some time. I start by getting the dog to understand the decoy dying. not slipping the equipment any more but by gradually and with patients lifting the dog off the dead decoy. I use this opportunity to praise the dog on the bite, letting him counter and shake while the decoy is dying with much praise. Lifting and letting him back down to counter and shake. Each time I hold up longer(also a good work out for the handler,lol) until finally the dog has to let go. In the next step I will go to some run away bites with a soft sleeve or a suite jacket and a hidden sleeve. I often do this at the end of a track, (I try to work on several things at the same time. There is so much to work on.) When the dog catches the man, bite on the sleeve or suit, I slip it and keep running, putting as much prey movement as I can. The handler gives the send command and encourages the dog to pursue the fleeing/flailing man. If needed the decoy can run in kind of a circle should the dog not seem to want to chase at first, It is funny to see sometimes the dog chasing the decoy with the sleeve in his mouth. Sometimes not dropping it until the last second. I have the handler slowing him a bit with the long line. Eventually the light goes off and the dog drops the dead sleeve to bite the live decoy. This is followed by a rewarding fight followed by a dying decoy and much praise from the handler. I let him hold this bite for a long time. After some repetitions most dogs will start dropping it pretty quickly. I feel like this is the best approach because it is the dogs prey drive that makes him want the sleeve in the first place. Prey drive is one of the strongest drives in most dogs. Especially Mals. lol
ma bucur ca punctele forte ale lui bob sunt legate de recuperarea cainilor de sport pentru realitate, asta insemna ca poate sa ofere sfaturi competente referitor la munca ajutorului, sau comportamentul ajutorului..care sunt cele mai mari greseli pe care le corecteaza de obicei..asta cred ca este cel mai mare subiect din timp ce ajutorul iti poate face sau iti poate strica cainele o parte din lucrurile pe care am invatat sa le previn si sa le corectez sunt:fixarea pe echipament, mutarea cainelui pe om, agresivitatea in cazul impuscaturilor "prietenesti", dorinta de "a se uita"(cu capul sus) in camp, cand avem nevoie sa caute, sa caute prin cladiri cu ochii si sa cu ochii semne pe sol si nu doar mirosuri umane cheia rezolarii fixatiei pe echipament este sa o rezolv prima data prin prada.sune o gramada de dresori care incearca sa rezolve asta prima data din "aparare".dupa ce lasa maneca ei incearca sa o plaseze intre caine si ajutor.cainele pune o gramada de presiune defensiva pe caine.El in cele mai dese cazuri isi va schimba atentia de la maneca pe atacul ajutorului.oamenii cred ca asta este bine.si spun"cainele este gata sa renunte la maneca pentru om".Da dar depinde de situatie, iar cainele isi apara maneca lui.De observat ca in multe cazuri ajutorul se intoarce si incepe sa plece, iar cainele iarasi revine la maneca.Ca si cum l-ar fi alungat pe om de la ceea ce de fapt isi doreste el.si asta mareste dorinta cainelui pentru maneca. Modul meu preferat de lucru necesita mai mult timp.incep prin a face cainele sa inteleaga ca ajutorul trebuie sa moara, nu-i mai las maneca dar fac asta gradual si cu rapdare ridic cainele de pe ajutorul "mort".profit de ocazie sa incurajez cainele pe muscatura, si-l las sa contreze si sa scuture in timp ce ajutorul moare.Prin ridicarea si eliberarea lui pentru a continua lupta, de fiecare data il las mai mult( de asemeni un antrenament bun si pentru handler)pana cand in cele din urma cainele trebuie sa dea drumu.Pasul urmator este sa facem cateva muscaturi din alergare pe un manson moale sau pe o geaca nosmala cu maneca ascunsa.fac asta de obicei la finalul urmei(incerc sa lucrez cateva lucruri in acelasi timp.sunt atat de multe).Cand cainele prinde omul, musca pe maneca sau pe costum, o las sa cada si continui sa fug, bag "prada" cat de multa pot.conductorul da comanda de trimitere inainte si incurajeaza cainele sa urmareasca omul ce alearga.La nevoie ajutorul va fugi chiar si intr-un fel de cerc in cazul in care la inceput cainele nu vrea sa-l urmareasca, e amuzant sa vezi uneori cainele interesat sa prinda ajutorul , in timp ce are maneca in gura.uneori fara sa o lasa din gura pana in ultima secunda.Handlerul il v-a incetini putin folosind lesa lunga.Eventual lumina se stinge si cainele lasa maneca moarta in schimbul ajutorului viu.[/b] asta este urmata de o lupta de recompensare a ajutorului care "moare" si multa incurajare din partea conductorului.Il las sa mentina muscatura o perioada lunga.Dupa cateva repetari vor renunta destul de repede.cred ca asta este cea mai buna abordare pentru ca tocmai instinctul de prada al cainelui il determina in prima faza sa-si doreasca mansonul.Prada este un instinct foarte important la majoritatea cainilor, in special malinois.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 02:15:43 AM
regarding to bite development, i've seen in a site, a police helper describing his way of doing things...he started the dog in prey (chasing and the first bite of the helper), and then he would work the dog only in defense...muzzle...when the dog worked good in defense he would start the fighting drive development,by working the dog in prey again(atac the running decoy from behind) ..i would like to know what you think about this
This, in my opinion, is basically correct, with one exception. And may be it is wording thing. But I would have a hard time saying I ever truly work a dog only in defense. Even when I am working a dog in defense, some prey stimulation is thrown in there if only for moments at a time. By the same token, when ai am working a dog in prey there are often "moments" that the stimulation I am giving is defense.
referitor la etapele dezvoltarii muscaturii am vazut pe un site , descrierea unui politist in felul urmator: incepea lucrul in prada(vanatoarea si prima muscatura a ajutorului), apoi lucra cainele numai in APARARE....lucrul cu botnita...cand cainele lucra bine in APARARE, incepea etapa dezvoltarii instinctului de lupta, prin lucrul cainelui din nou in prada(atacul de la spate al infractorului ce alearga), as vrea sa stiu cum vezi tu lucrurile
parerea mea este ca lucreaza in principiu corect, cu o exceptie.Si probabil e o chestie de exprimare.Dar nu pot sa spun ca lucrez vreodata cainele numai in APARARE.Chiar si cand il lucrez in APARARE, mai arunc ici colo cateva miscari pentru stimularea instinctului de prada, cateva secunde. si la fel se intampla si in lucrul instinctului de prada, mai introduc ici colo momente stresante de APARARE.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 02:19:15 AM
Yes prey drive is the strongest, especially in Mals.. Where and when does fight drive come into play ? Can we say that a high fight drive K9 will focus on Man and naturally let go of sleeve and pursue 'helper'. So would it be fair to say that 'fight drive' is what we're after, rather than prey drive ?
da , prada este un instinct puternic, in special la malinois.. cand si unde intra in actiune instinctul de lupta? putem spune ca un instinct de lupta, il va dirija spre om, si in mod natural va renunta la maneca si va ataca omul? Deci putem spune ca de fapt "instinctul de lupta" este ceea ce dorim sa obtinem, si nu instinctul de prada?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 02:47:09 AM
This is the statement that we believe and we do a lot this type of training once the said dog "pass" through the level of bite-work, apart from muzzle-work, we do a lot of so-called civil agitation too. Once in the blue-moon, we hit hard on the dogs!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgieTN7NwA0[/youtube] lucrul cu botnita I may have my own view when come to dog-working and many of the times, I have difficulties in expressing myself to have a proper description. Let me see if I can at least drop to share some later. Reading and learning from someone else is always something that I always do ;) :cool: :lol:
atacul in botnita reprezinta in opinia mea cel mai bun exercitiu pentru un caine de strada. aceata este declaratia pe care o credem si noi ,si facem mult antrenament de tipul acesta odata ce cainele a trecut de un anumit nivel de agresivitate, separat de lucrul cu botnita, facem foarte multa "agitatie civila".Odata ajunsi in "luna -albastra" , "lovim tare in caini"( scuze de traducerea defectuasa a ultimei propozitii..mai pe romaneste cred ca vrea sa spuna ca odata ce au pus bazele cat de cat , apoi baga munca la modul intens)
Poate ca am si eu parerile mele referitor la lucrul cu cainii , dar am dificultati in a ma exprima mai bine.Sper sa pot arata o mostra putin mai tarziu.citind si invatand de la altii este un lucru pe care-l fac tot timpul ;) :cool: :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 03:59:29 AM
i dont have the experience you people have, but i think it also depends very much of the dog..if the dog is naturaly bad boy...then you can start imediatly in defense with him...but if you dont know exactly what type of nerves he's got, you can try to start step by step with prey in the beginning..not taking the risk of too much stress, and ruining this way the dogs potential for later development for a dog with natural skils is like a no brainer , to make him for protection, but with dogs that have less instinct, i think we should have a strategy to transform him into personal protection dog
nu am experianta voastra dar mai cred ca depinde foarte mult si de cainele pe care-l ai..daca ai un caine cu instincte native puternice..atunci poti incepe imediat in aparare..dar daca ai un caine despre care nu stii exact cum este, poti incerca sa-l dresezi pas cu pas incepand cu prada la inceput..fara sa-ti asumi riscul de a stresa cainele prea tare si sa-i strici potentialul de a se dezvolta mai tarziu. un caine care are instincte de la natura, nici nu trebuie sa te gandesti prea mult ca sa-l faci de paza si protectie, dar un caine cu instincte mai slabe trebuie sa planifici si sa aplici o strategie
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 04, 2011, 07:48:54 AM
Dux, Hello! :) I enjoyed watching ya'll train. Good work and a good young dog also. :ok: I agree with you in that after a couple of times with a hidden sleeve, the dog figures it out. But what happens the first 1 or 2 times is all that I need to know. ;) Also the commitment the dog shows on sends far enough away that he does not necessarily know until he gets there tells me a lot also. Muzzle work makes up the difference.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
Dux, Hello! :) I enjoyed watching ya'll train. Good work and a good young dog also. :ok: I agree with you in that after a couple of times with a hidden sleeve, the dog figures it out. But what happens the first 1 or 2 times is all that I need to know. ;) Also the commitment the dog shows on sends far enough away that he does not necessarily know until he gets there tells me a lot also. Muzzle work makes up the difference.
hello dux, am urmarit cu placere clipurile .Lucru bun si de asemeni caine tanar bun :ok: De acord, cainele dupa cateva repetari cu maneca ascunsa, isi da seama.Dar ceea ce se intampla primele dati este tot ce-mi treuie sa stiu. ;) de asemeni hotararea cainelui pe trimiterile inainte destul de indepartate, distanta pe care cainele nu o constientizeaza decat cand ajunge acolo, mie imi spune multe.Lucrul cu botnita face diferenta.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 04, 2011, 08:18:26 AM
Yes prey drive is the strongest, especially in Mals.. Where and when does fight drive come into play ? Can we say that a high fight drive K9 will focus on Man and naturally let go of sleeve and pursue 'helper'. So would it be fair to say that 'fight drive' is what we're after, rather than prey drive ?
MS, I always prefer a dog that is easy to get into what I call fight drive. Dogs like this I call fight drive dogs. As apposed to what I call prey dogs. But a point I have been trying to make is this. Even in prey drive and or even with dogs that tend to work more to the prey side the focus can still be the man rather than the equipment. When I start a young dog the style of decoying used makes the decoy the object of the dogs prey. Then I try to not slip equipment, but rather submit, appear to grow weaker as the dogs reward, and yes, when the young dog is gradually lifted off strong, run off.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 04, 2011, 08:22:54 AM
Leo, nice work! and nice dogs as well. Between you and these guys from Romania, I have seen the nicest GSD I think I have ever seen. notworthy Muzzle work was just great. What else can I say.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 04, 2011, 08:35:08 AM
Kangdanlin, You must have a lot of experience or you are a quick study, because I think you nailed it. But if you watch a great decoy working these tough young type of dogs in defense, they are throwing some prey movements in there if but seconds at a time. A great decoy is often mixing the signals as the dog needs each.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 04, 2011, 08:36:08 AM
Leo, nice work! and nice dogs as well. Between you and these guys from Romania, I have seen the nicest GSD I think I have ever seen. notworthy Muzzle work was just great. What else can I say.
Thank you for your kind compliments Bob :)
We have much more to learns and always like to "modify" the training program from other to suit our need :devil:
The Romanian guys may come to visit us soon but not sure about the date :rolleyes: may be before end of this year? :devil: I have here a standing invitation to you and Roger, please liaise up among you-two then ;)
We practice NO Kennel Blind neither on Training Blind too :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 04, 2011, 08:43:20 AM
You just really hurt Drago's feelings. lol That's ok, he'll make it up to you. :laugh: I agree, though, didn't I tell you these are the only GSDs for me between Leo and Dani's kennel?
People, I can't tell you how many crappy GSDs I have seen. To see good ones and people breeding good ones is a real pleasure.
Leo, nice work! and nice dogs as well. Between you and these guys from Romania, I have seen the nicest GSD I think I have ever seen. notworthy Muzzle work was just great. What else can I say.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 04, 2011, 08:57:35 AM
LOL! Roger, glad to see you have power. Funny thing is as soon as I hit send, I thought about the fact I might hurt "Dragos" feelings. :undecided: What I ment is multiple dogs and breeding programs into several generations. "Drago" know I love him! lol
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 04, 2011, 09:25:50 AM
I know man, Leo and Dani, Dux, and Santos (and now Kangdanlin with his Greif son) and some others on the board I don't know as well all are bringing some good experience and showing some nice dogs... Ron, Bobo, Manstopper...Thara, who will kick your ass in a heartbeat if you post something in the wrong spot :laugh:
You will like spending time on this board while you're over there finding bombs. Took Riker into town this morning, what a great friggin dog, I have always wanted one like him, too.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 04, 2011, 10:43:37 AM
...Thara, who will kick your ass in a heartbeat if you post something in the wrong spot :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :yes:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 04, 2011, 11:13:22 AM
imi place cainele din clipul 2 postat de Leo .Cainilor buni de paza nu le trebuie prea mult dresaj ca sa poata sa isi faca treaba Trebuie lucrat la starnirea instinctului si disciplina la atac
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 11:54:26 AM
imi place cainele din clipul 2 postat de Leo .Cainilor buni de paza nu le trebuie prea mult dresaj ca sa poata sa isi faca treaba Trebuie lucrat la starnirea instinctului si disciplina la atac
i like Leo's dog in the second clip.good dogs dont need too much training to be able to do their job.must work on the instinct stimulation and the atack discipline
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on February 04, 2011, 11:55:20 AM
good dogs dont need too much training to be able to do their job.must work on the instinct stimulation and the atack discipline
This is what i mean by 'less is more' even if you have minimal knowledge in training dogs, you can still end up with a descent K9. The less we do the more stronger and SERIOUS the dog becomes IMO..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 04, 2011, 11:11:13 PM
Thanks Santos, to me ... both the dog and it handler much have good bond in between. The stronger the bond is, the better team, them they can be!
Meanwhile on dog's training view, the said dog and it handler much gone through the different phrases of workout ... by doing this, the dog learn that he can trust and rely on it handler and in return, he would do his best to please or to protect his owner/ handler!
Look at those war dogs ... they army dont have much times to select and to train them but many of them still make it and with good names after so many years! This actually stronger my believe that, the better the bond is in between ... the dog would definite works better and to meet the expectation to it handler. Like Max said: A dog is as good as it owner (handler)"!
Sharing with you a video when I learn about doing Personal Protection dog with FAX years back, in about 03 sessions, FAX learn fast and act accordingly ... my staffs enjoying hitting me hard on that workout! :devil:
Cu cat mai puternica legatura om-caine, cu atat mai puternica echipa! cat despre antrenamentul cainelui, cel in discutie si handlerul sau au trecut prin diferite etape de antrenament.. in felul acesta, cainele a invatat ca poate avea incredere in handler iar in schimb, va face tot posibilul sa isi apere / multumeasca handlerul!
Uitati-va la acei caini de razboi.. armata nu avea asa mult timp sa-i selecteze si sa-i dreseze si totusi multi caini au fost buni si cu reputatie de-alungul anilor! asta imi intareste si mai mult credinta ca, cu cat mai buna legatura etc... cainele va lucra cu atat mai bine si va intampina asteptarile handlerului. Cum spunea si Max: "Un caine e la fel de bun cat e handlerul / proprietarul"!
Sa va arat un clip, din vremea cand am invatat mai multe despre lucrul de protectie personala cu cainele Fax, acum cativa ani, in aprox 3 sedinte de lucru, Fax a invatat sa lucreze corespunzator.. angajatii mei se bucurau ca sunt "nevoiti" sa ma loveasca :devil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYBcKDH7_s
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 05, 2011, 12:38:33 AM
Sharing with you a video when I learn about doing Personal Protection dog with FAX years back, in about 03 sessions, FAX learn fast and act accordingly ... my staffs enjoying hitting me hard on that workout! :devil:
I know for sure Dux will want to share some thought on multiple attack training.. in fact Santos, too..
Stiu sigur ca Dux va avea ceva de spus despre antrenemantele cu atacuri multiple.. de fapt si Santos, cred..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 01:00:49 AM
I know for sure Dux will want to share some thought on multiple attack training.. in fact Santos, too..
Stiu sigur ca Dux va avea ceva de spus despre antrenemantele cu atacuri multiple.. de fapt si Santos, cred..
:shocked: :oups: I better do a quick one and make my view understand by other ;)
When we do PP work, it is more for individual civilian! We are using this training to get ourselves out from confrontation (buying time) to "run" away from the issue. We are not doing PP to show others that our dog can do this and get macho thinking!
On the other way, we use this for crowd control work ... at least we still have backup from other team-mate! ;)
Now ... I am waiting for someone to shoot :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 05, 2011, 01:28:20 AM
:shocked: :oups: I better do a quick one and make my view understand by other ;)
Now ... I am waiting for someone to shoot :lol:
:grin:
leo, don't worry, if anyone shoots, that is with opinions, not more, and your own opinion is just as important as others.. ;)
I know Dux says often that, he would spoil a dog's bite when training for multiple decoy attacks, because the dog knows he has to let go of one decoy and go for another, so in this way the grip loses strength. But I would rather let him say things in his own words
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 05, 2011, 01:44:52 AM
Leo, I totally agree with you that strong bond leads to strong communication, ending in good work / results. In fact, I believe that is another aspect to look into, nowadays many breed and train in a "farm" method, they have a number of dogs and so the work is being done in a more mechanical manner. Some of the best dogs I have seen, did not undergo that much training but they loved their owner A LOT (and the other way around)
Leo, sunt total de acord cu tine ca o legatura puternica intre caine si handler / proprietar duce la comunicare buna si respectiv lucru bun / rezultate bune. De fapt, cred ca asta e un alt aspect care poate fi abordat mai in profunzime, in zileel noastre sunt multi care cresc si dreseaza caini intr-o maniera mai mecanica, pt ca au multi caini. unii din cei mai buni caini pe care i-am vazut, nu parcursesera cine stie ce dresaj dar erau FOARTE atasati de stapani (si invers, bine-nteles)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 05, 2011, 01:47:11 AM
Your right guys there must be a bond and this makes commands and work all the more effective. In regards to multiple decoy attacks, true there would be slight loss of grip, but in reality enough to do some :devil: I think this would be the way to go in training a young dog, better focus on Man.
Aveti dreptate trebuie sa existe o legatura puternica iar asta va face munca si comenzile cu atat mai eficiente. In ce priviste atacurile cu mai multi atentatori, intr-adevar ar aparea prize mai slabe, dar in realitate suficient de puternice sa produca rani serioase cred ca asta e calea buna in a pregati un caine tanar, focusarea pe OM.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 01:55:50 AM
leo, don't worry, if anyone shoots, that is with opinions, not more, and your own opinion is just as important as others.. ;)
I know Dux says often that, he would spoil a dog's bite when training for multiple decoy attacks, because the dog knows he has to let go of one decoy and go for another, so in this way the grip loses strength.
Quote
But I would rather let him say things in his own words
The bite not that strong when doing multiple bite-work? I'd hear some one make that command too (long time ago) but who is dare to work the dogs "nakedly" without any protection gears? :devil:
Small / semi bite ... not that hurt but still hurt and cost bleeding! Big bite ... yes, it hurt! Firm grip bite ... definitely hurt! The bottom line is ... they are to take down the bad-guys for their handler ;)
Do you think all the bad guys were decoy on these? :devil: :laugh:
Here is another one on recall ... works on two decoys!
Stiu ca Dux a mai spus ca prin folosirea mai multor atentatori ar slabi priza, pt ca animalul stie ca trebuie sa lase la un momentdat un atentator si sa se duca pe altul, prin urmare forta muscaturii nu mai e aceeasi. priza nu e la fel de puternica atunci cand folosim mai multi atentatori? Am mai auzit pe cineva facand aceasta afirmatie (nu demult) dar cine are curaj sa se bage atentator, fara echipament de protectie? :devil:
Priza usoara, medie... nu va cauza f multa paguba, dar ceva sange tot va curge! Priza puternica - da, o sa doara! Concluzia este... ei trebuie sa rapuna infractorul, pt handler ;) [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=9x8ugV4HqAo[/youtube]
Hey, I am :nein: looking for a fight but merely just to express my point of view :lol: ::peace::
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 02:06:54 AM
Leo, I totally agree with you that strong bond leads to strong communication, ending in good work / results. In fact, I believe that is another aspect to look into, nowadays many breed and train in a "farm" method, they have a number of dogs and so the work is being done in a more mechanical manner. Some of the best dogs I have seen, did not undergo that much training but they loved their owner A LOT (and the other way around)
I agreed with the above statement! Every trainer claim to be the best in their own way of training and I did that 2 :devil: (long times ago) until I learns something else that so-called is from the lost art of working service training ... until today, I remain open-minded in training although I may get hard-headed at times that I will still stay with the lost art :devil:
Well, the bottom line is ... let the dog's performance speak! hit1
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 05, 2011, 07:35:25 AM
sa traduca cineva ca sa am ce sa comentez
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 05, 2011, 08:40:37 AM
The bite not that strong when doing multiple bite-work? I'd hear some one make that command too (long time ago) but who is dare to work the dogs "nakedly" without any protection gears? :devil: Small / semi bite ... not that hurt but still hurt and cost bleeding! Big bite ... yes, it hurt! Firm grip bite ... definitely hurt! The bottom line is ... they are to take down the bad-guys for their handler ;) Do you think all the bad guys were decoy on these? :devil: :laugh: Here is another one on recall ... works on two decoys! Hey, I am :nein: looking for a fight but merely just to express my point of view :lol: ::peace::
muscatura nu e asa puternica in cazul atacatorilor multipli? Am auzit lucrul asta si de la altcineva(cu ceva timp in urma) dar cine indrazneste sa lucreze "gol" fara echipament de protectie? Mica/semi muscatura..nu doare asa tare dar totusi se simte , si poate provoca sangerare! muscatura mare....clar doare! Concluzia..ei ar trebui sa-i doboare pe baietii rau pentru conductorul lor;) Credeti ca toti "baietii rai" din clip erau "ajutoare"? hey, nu caut contraziceri, ci doar imi exprim punctul de vedere :lol: ::peace::
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 05, 2011, 08:45:26 AM
I agreed with the above statement! Every trainer claim to be the best in their own way of training and I did that 2 :devil: (long times ago) until I learns something else that so-called is from the lost art of working service training ... until today, I remain open-minded in training although I may get hard-headed at times that I will still stay with the lost art :devil:
Well, the bottom line is ... let the dog's performance speak! hit1
de acord cu declaratia de mai sus!orice dresor pretinde ca el este cel mai bun in metoda lui de dresaj si eu eram la fel :devil: (mult timp in urma)pana cand am invatat altceva, din asa numita "arta pierduta" a dresajului cainilor de serviciu...pana azi, raman cu mintea deschisa desi pot si eu sa ma incapatanez uneori si sa raman cu vechea arta :devil: in final..cel mai bine cred ca ar trebui sa lasam performanta cainilor sa vorbeasca pentru noi ! hit1
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 05, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
:shocked: :oups: I better do a quick one and make my view understand by other ;) When we do PP work, it is more for individual civilian! We are using this training to get ourselves out from confrontation (buying time) to "run" away from the issue. We are not doing PP to show others that our dog can do this and get macho thinking! On the other way, we use this for crowd control work ... at least we still have backup from other team-mate! ;) Now ... I am waiting for someone to shoot :lol:
:shocked: :oups: as face bine daca as reusi sa ma fac inteles mai bine de catre ceilalti ;) cand facem dresaj de protectie, este mai degraba "individual civil"(probabil vrea sa spuna personal)!folosim genul asta de dresaj pentru a nu fi nevoie sa ne implicam noi in confruntare(tragem de timp) pentru a fugi de problema.Nu facem dresajul de protectie ca sa ne simtim mai barbati, si sa ne laudam cu ce poate sa faca cainele! pe partea cealalta folosim dresajul pentru munca de control al multimilor..sau macar avem intariri din partea coechipierului! ;)
acum ..astept sa traga careva :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 05, 2011, 08:53:58 AM
leo, don't worry, if anyone shoots, that is with opinions, not more, and your own opinion is just as important as others.. ;)
I know Dux says often that, he would spoil a dog's bite when training for multiple decoy attacks, because the dog knows he has to let go of one decoy and go for another, so in this way the grip loses strength. But I would rather let him say things in his own words
:grin: leo, nu-ti fa griji, daca cineva trage, o face prin exprimarea opiniei, nimic mai mult, iar parerea ta e la fel de importanta ca a oricui .. ;) Stiu ca Dux spune adesea asta, ca daca lucreaza cu prea multi atacatori mai degraba strica muscatura, fiindca acesta invata ca trebuie sa dea drumul unuia ca sa-l prinda pe altul, si in felul asta muscatura isi pierde puterea.dar prefer sa-l las pe el sa spuna cu cuvintele lui.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 05, 2011, 09:02:58 AM
Leo, I respect your training because you are actually training for a job that you know well. You are ensuring the safety of civilians, and you are doing it so you ensure your business survives, and your handlers and staff survive. That's work, and you have working dogs, which is the essence of what I like. No matter which road a real working dog owner chooses, at least they are putting themselves on that road, and I pay attention when they speak of their work.
I agreed with the above statement! Every trainer claim to be the best in their own way of training and I did that 2 :devil: (long times ago) until I learns something else that so-called is from the lost art of working service training ... until today, I remain open-minded in training although I may get hard-headed at times that I will still stay with the lost art :devil:
Well, the bottom line is ... let the dog's performance speak! hit1
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 05, 2011, 09:06:59 AM
yeah.. it's probably wise to make a point that one may train their dog for real work BUT with different purposes in mind, so we don't have to draw a line and say "there is only one way", or anything of that sort..
da.. este bine sa subliniem ca ne putem dresa cainii pt munca reala dar cu scopuri diferite in minte, deci nu putem generaliza si spune ca exista o singura cale spre lucrul "real"
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 05, 2011, 09:46:15 AM
Once again, I really enjoyed watching these video's. Well except for the fact that here in Afghanistan, each video takes about 15 minutes to down load. lol I agree with some of what both of you are saying. Leo about the need to have a dog that knows how to handle multiple attackers and the other saying that it weakens the grip. I think the key is to find a balance. Where multiple attackers could and probably would attack this fast. In training I have it slowed down. Letting the dog hold the grip for a little longer before the next attacker comes in. Some times very slow, some times a little faster and only rarely very fast. If the dog will come off decoy number one to bite decoy number 2 every time, Then I don't feel the need to practice it this fas often. Another thing I have done with multiple attackers is have the dog lunging drive the decoy away, with no bite. This, as another exercise in training the multiple attacker scenario has several benefits. One it can be performed with out bite equipment, 2 It can be done at high speeds without the weakening grip concern and 3 It teaches the dog he has the power to drive the bad guy away sometimes with just his bark and lunge. I also use a second attacker as a motivating way to sharpen the out. I will out a dog for a bite on a second handler several times, letting him hold each bite for a little while before the out and send on the second decoy. This serves two purposes. The first is that weakening grip thing. The second is to give the other decoy a moment on the last out to leave the area. So on the last out the dog comes running toward me thinking he is going to run past me to bite the other decoy, but this time he is not there. About the time the dog is about to get to me I command him to the heel position and down. The moment he does, I quickly praise and send for the final bite as the remaning decoy stimulates the dog. Long bite this time with much praise and my dying decoy. No out this time I ether gradually lift the dog off the bite, praising the whole time, or the decoy comes back to life slipping out of the jacket and runs off. I have a video of some outs for a second decoy I might show. I am reluctant though because it was kind of a show and tell day with some non-dog people I know and both decoys in the videos know nothing about decoying lol. but the dog was sure enough in her bite work that it did not matter much, i am explaining some things more that i am working on the dogs training. lol
Inca o data, am vazut cu mare placere clipurile.Numai ca aici in Afganistan, fiecare clip se incarca in aproximativ 15 minute.Sunt de acord cu cateva din lucrurile pe care le spuneti ambii.Leo despre nevoia de a avea un caine ce stie sa faca fata mai multor atacatori si pe partea cealalta faptul ca lucrul asta slabeste muscatura. Cred ca cheia este sa gasin echilibrul.Unde mai multi atacatori ar putea si probabil ca ar ataca atat de repede.In antrenament eu am incetinit lucrul asta.Lasand cainele sa tina priza pentru mai mult timp inainte sa vine urmatorul atacator.Uneori foarte incet, alteori ceva mai rapid si rareori foarte rapid.Daca cainele lasa primul atacator si sare sa-l muste pe al doilea de fiecare data, atunci nu simt nevoia sa exersez lucrul asta prea mult.Alt lucru pe care l-am facut cu atacatori multipli este sa lansez cainele spre atacator punandu-l pe fuga fara sa faca priza. asta, este un alt exercitiu in antrenarea pentru scenariul cu mai multi atacatori care are cateva beneficii.Onul poate fi executat fara echipament pentru muscatura, 2 poate fi facut la viteze mari fara sa slabeasca muscatura, si 3 invata cainele ca el are puterea de a pune pe fuga atacatorul prin simpu latrat si prin inaintare.De asemeni folosesc un al doilea atacator ca motivare pentru executarea comenzii OUT.Voi comanda OUT pentru o muscatura pe un atacator secundar de cateva ori, lasandu-l sa mentina putin muscatura inainte de lasare si-l trimit pe al doilea atacator.Asta serveste 2 scopuri.Primul este slabirea muscaturii.Al doilea este de a-i da celuilalt atacator un moment de la ultima lasare ca sa poata parasi zona.Deci pe ultima "lasare" cainele vine alergand spre mine crezand ca va alerga pe langa mine sa-l muste pe al doilea atacator, numai ca data asta el nu mai este acolo. Despre momentul cand cainele este pe cale sa ajunga la mine ii comand sa treaca la picior si apoi culcat.Cand executa, il laut imediat si-l trimit inainte pentru muscatura finala in timp ce atacatorul ce a ramas stimuleaza cainele.Muscatura adanca de data asta cu recompensare din plin si cu atacatorul care "moare".fara comanda OUT de data aceasta ridic usor cainele de pe muscatura, incurajand tot timpul, sau atacatorul "revine la viata" renuntand la geaca si fuge scapand . Am cateva clipuri cu "LASA" pe al doilea atacator pe care as putea sa le arat.Sunt putin reticent deoarece era un fel de zi "arata si prezinta" alaturi de alti oameni care nu se ocupa cu cainii iar cei doi atacatori nu stiu mai nimic despre munca de AJUTOR.Dar cateaua era destul de sigura pe muscatura asa incat nu a mai contat, explic mai mult decat aplic pe caine .LOL
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 05, 2011, 09:48:09 AM
So Leo, you are a student of Mike McConnery? ;)
Deci Leo, esti elevul lui Mike McConnery? ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 10:03:49 AM
Leo, I respect your training because you are actually training for a job that you know well. You are ensuring the safety of civilians, and you are doing it so you ensure your business survives, and your handlers and staff survive. That's work, and you have working dogs, which is the essence of what I like. No matter which road a real working dog owner chooses, at least they are putting themselves on that road, and I pay attention when they speak of their work.
yeah.. it's probably wise to make a point that one may train their dog for real work BUT with different purposes in mind, so we don't have to draw a line and say "there is only one way", or anything of that sort..
Bingo ... :bravo:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 10:07:18 AM
I am not his student but I managed to learn some from his student who was my guru :cool: I find his way of doing suit well in our training program by far! BUT, I never over-look from other's for I am "open-minded" ;)
What do you of this Mike then?
Nu sunt elevul lui dar am reusit sa invat ceva de la un elev de-al lui care este guru meu. :cool: Cred ca felul lui de a face lucrurile se potriveste cel mai bine cu programul nostru de antrenament de departe, dar dar niciodata nu ignor ce spun si altii, am mintea deschisa ;) Deci, ce crezi despre Mike?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 05, 2011, 10:25:00 AM
Just some of his basic philosophies. I have read a lot of his editorials. I have aways been intrigued by Baden k9? I would like to delve into his working service training further. :think:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 05, 2011, 10:42:51 AM
Just some of his basic philosophies. I have read a lot of his editorials. I have aways been intrigued by Baden k9? I would like to delve into his working service training further. :think:
Here is a video that showing on FAX, when my guru ask to send FAX and have him jump over for the very first time, I react and respond by saying that, no ... FAX cannot do that ... he have not being train this way!
My guru insist and I try a few times ... and true enough, FAX did not make the jump/climb over. It was me as the handler, who follow my "human" instinct that FAIL me and FAX! I tend to stop just when I reach to the wall and FAX follow me! I then follow the "instruction" and assist FAX to climb over by assisting him a bit ... boom, on the 3rd try, FAX success! Check video
Aici este un clip cu FAX, cand gurul meu a cerut sa-l trimit pe FAX peste un obstacol pentru prima data, ca reactie am spus Nu...Fax nu poate sa faca asta, nu a fost antrenat !Guru a insistat si eu am incercat de cateva ori..si asa a si fost cainele nu a putut sari/catara obstacolul. Eu ca si handler , care-mi ascult instinctul"uman", am determinat esecul cainelui!am avut tendinta de a ma pori cand am ajuns la zid iar FAX s-a luat dupa mine!apoi am urmat instructiunile si l-am ajutat pe FAX sa se catere peste ...si apoi boom, la a treia incercare cainele a reusit!..se vede in clip
From there, I learn "a dog is as good as his owner" or should I said, "a dog follow what his owner thought"!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 05, 2011, 11:15:57 AM
atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 05, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui
the 2 attacker scenario will ruin the bite, this is no problem becouse even a weakened bite can inflict serious damage.Bad thing is to ruind the dogs determination.this is what i noticed over the time, including VINER.Is hard to make the multiple attackers scenario and the dog to maintain a good determination.As for the training methods i think anybody can make his own personal method, and one can learn from anybody even the tiniest thing that can help you train.Iam not the advocate of sports dogs although i trained many sport dogs ,IPO, and i still train, but i prefere the classic patrol training witch is more efficient and there you can see the dog's value
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 06, 2011, 05:48:29 AM
Dupa cum a spus si Leo principalul lucru in dresaj este atasamentul cainelui de stapan sau de curtea in care locueste ma refer la dresajul de paza Este gresit sa credem ca daca tinem un caine izolat o sa devina mai agresiv plimbarile intaresc atasamentul si da incredere cainelui.
As Leo also said, the main thing is the dogs attachment to the owner, or the backyard he is living in, for the protection. Is wrong to think that if we keep the dog isolated it will become aggressive..The walks strenghten the attachment and gives the dog trust.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 06, 2011, 06:13:32 AM
atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui
the 2 attacker scenario will ruin the bite, this is no problem becouse even a weakened bite can inflict serious damage.Bad thing is to ruind the dogs determination.this is what i noticed over the time, including VINER.Is hard to make the multiple attackers scenario and the dog to maintain a good determination.
Hummmnnn, Like I said early, my view on training is for the bottom line ... sending the dog to knock down and apprehend the bad guys! Or to serve some buying time for the owner to run away when it is in the position as personal protection dog! I dont have any other intention to work on other than these two! ::peace:: :)
As for the training methods i think anybody can make his own personal method, and one can learn from anybody even the tiniest thing that can help you train. I am not the advocate of sports dogs although i trained many sport dogs ,IPO, and i still train, but i prefere the classic patrol training witch is more efficient and there you can see the dog's value
Hell right! :rockon:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 06, 2011, 12:16:33 PM
Leo said, "A dog followed what his owner thought."
I understand this, I have experienced it, But I only if I do not think about it to hard. If I think about it to hard, it does not seem logical. When my wife and I first got married, she had two big dogs. They were nice dogs but had had very little in the way of training. The house we were going to live in had a drive through gate at the front of the house. My kennels were in the back yard so we were going to keep her two dogs in the front when we were gone all day. This meant you would have to drive up, get out and open the gate, drive in, get out and shut the gate. She said,"how am I ever going to get them to stay while I pull the car in." The road in front had some traffic on it. Without thinking about it I said, "you are going to have to know that they will." I have thought a lot about that statement I made because that was te first time I had tried to communicate this idea that I my self had never thought about on a conscious level. :think: weird.
Leo a spus ca :"cainele a facut ceea ce gandea stapanul" Inteleg asta, si am trait si eu asa ceva, dar numai daca nu ma gandesc prea mult.Daca ma gandesc prea mult, nu-mi mai pare logic. Cand m-am casatorit, necasta mea avea 2 caini mari. Erau destul de draguti dar nu aveau mai deloc dresaj. Casa in care trebuia sa ne mutam, avea o intrare chiar in fata pentru masina. Canisa mea era in spate, si trebuia sa tinem cei 2 caini ai ei in fata casei cat timp noi eram plecati. Asta insemna ca trebuia sa cobori, sa deschizi poarta, sa intri cu masina, sa cobori si sa inchizi poarta. Ea zicea: cum oare o sa-i fac sa stea cat timp bag eu masina inauntru? >Strada din fata avea trafic destul de mare. Fara sa gandesc ce spun i-am replicat ca :va trebui sa ai incredere ca ei vor sti sa stea cuminti. M-am gandit mult la ceea ce i-am spus, pentru ca era prima data cand am incercat sa explic ideea asta, pe care eu niciodata nu am constientizat-o deplin. :think: Ciudat.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 06, 2011, 12:28:57 PM
Leo said, "A dog followed what his owner thought."
I understand this, I have experienced it, But I only if I do not think about it to hard. If I think about it to hard, it does not seem logical. When my wife and I first got married, she had two big dogs. They were nice dogs but had had very little in the way of training. The house we were going to live in had a drive through gate at the front of the house. My kennels were in the back yard so we were going to keep her two dogs in the front when we were gone all day. This meant you would have to drive up, get out and open the gate, drive in, get out and shut the gate. She said,"how am I ever going to get them to stay while I pull the car in." The road in front had some traffic on it. Without thinking about it I said, "you are going to have to know that they will." I have thought a lot about that statement I made because that was te first time I had tried to communicate this idea that I my self had never thought about on a conscious level. :think: weird.
Interesting Bob ... so the two dogs stay? ;) :)
The reason I said: "A dog followed what his owner thought" ... if the owner think that he can do it then the dog will definitely cannot do it! And, in my humble opinion ... there are two reasons explain like this: 1) The dog is so smart that they take the easy way out since the owner think that he cannot do it! 2) We human-being always under estimated what a dog can do and many of the times, we tend to use us "human-being" as a guide-line when working/training the dog!
Damn, I hope I manged to put my points across ... the more I read it, the more myself get confused! :lol:
Interesant Bob..deci cainii au stat linistiti? ;) :)
Am spus ca ei au facut ceea ce stapanul lor gandea...daca stapanul crede ca NU poate reusi, atunci cainele in mod sigur nu va reusi! Si in opinia mea sunt 2 motive pentru asta: 1 Cainele-i destept incat alege calea mai usoara, din moment ce stapanul nu are incredere! 2 Stapanul totdeauna subestimeaza posibilitatile cainelui, si se foloseste pe sine ca si reper cand antreneaza caini
Sper ca am reusit sa exprim exact ceea ce vreau sa zic, cu cat citesc mai mult cu atat devin mai confuz! :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobdog on February 07, 2011, 08:00:05 AM
I understand, Leo. :cool:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 07, 2011, 08:04:35 AM
dupa cum a spus si Leo principalul lucru in dresaj este atasamentul cainelui de stapan sau de curtea in care locueste ma refer la dresajul de paza Este gresit sa credem ca daca tinem un caine izolat o sa devina mai agresiv plimbarile intaresc atasamentul si da incredere cainelui
as Leo said also, the main thing is the dogs attachment to the owner, or the backyard he is living in, for the protection.Is wrong to think that if we keep the dog isolated it will become aggressive..The walks strenghten the attachment and gives the dog trust
Yes, that's very true! :bravo:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 09, 2011, 08:18:17 AM
Just some of his basic philosophies. I have read a lot of his editorials. I have aways been intrigued by Baden k9? I would like to delve into his working service training further. :think:
doar cateva principii de baza.am citit multe din editorialele sale.totdeauna am fost intrigat de cainele meu Baden!as dori sa aprofundez antrenamentul sau de caine de serviciu mai departe. :think:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 09, 2011, 11:23:57 AM
eu nu prea cred ce spun unii oameni despre cainii lor ca anticipeaza evenimente sau ce gandesc deoarece eu avand scoala de dresaj vin foarte multi clienti si fiecare povesteste intamplari fantastice despre cainii lor si eu sunt obligat sa ii ascult O sa va povestesc ce am patit eu .Il dresam pe Cheros tatal lui Viner ,faceam dresaj de IPO lucram cu el de 1 an si ,ajunsesem la IPO3 Antrenamentele le faceam zilnic cu o zi pe saptamana pauza adica zilnic faceam disciplina urma si paza.Dupa o perioada de timp cainele imi anticipa ce comenzi o sa ii dau indiferent daca le schimbam ordinea (ma refer la disciplina) Cainele executa comanda inainte sa o dau eu si imi facea un antrenament plin de nervi deoarece nu puteam sa il pedepsesc cand gresea Poate o sa spuneti ca fabulez dar asta am patit eu , daca auzeam de cineva nu il credeam
9
9
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 09, 2011, 04:04:38 PM
This is a DDR being tested by a friend of mine and Bob's, Jay Raw. Jay has worked my dogs before and called today to say he will be working them again while Bob is gone. So, maybe next week I will see about some videos of them working.
The owner of this dog wanted Jay to TEST his dog, not work him or train him. He lives in a very dangerous place and wanted to know for sure if his DDR dog would protect him if things get rough. Very nice dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRT4nS1pgw&NR=1 ----- Original Message -----
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 10, 2011, 04:35:33 AM
cainele din clip cred ca este mai mult pe prada decat pe real din ce vad eu Poate ma insel dar un caine de real se comporta altfel .Sa mai faca un test unde atentatorul nu are costum si sa nu il agite inainte apoi sa ii puna botnita si sa il dea pe atentator daca o sa se comporte tot asa atunci va ataca si la o situatie reala Important este ca inainte de test cainele sa nu fie agitat de atentator si nici cand se da comanda de atac
From what i see the dog works more in prey instinct than reality, maybe i am wrong but a reality dog behaves differently. Maybe he can do another test with the dog without the bite suit and he shouldn't agitate the dog before, and then put the muzzle and release him on the attacker. If he will behave the same way then he will attack also in a real situation. It's important not to agitate the dog by the helper before the attack command.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 10, 2011, 07:41:14 AM
He tested this dog many different ways, this was all the dog owner's family videotaped. The dog is in Kansas City, we are in Texas, he won't be going back. I think he said the dog had bitten before (real situation) but had not been tested hard.
A testat cainele in multe feluri, asta este tot ceea ce a filmat familia.Cainele este in Kansas, noi suntem in Texas, n-avem cum sa refacem filmarea. Cred ca a spus ca acest caine a mai muscat inainte(situatii reale) dar nu a fost testat serios.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 10, 2011, 08:45:22 AM
Really enjoyed the video, this dog has heaps of courage and cleverly works,i would be more than happy if he was mine Roger. Santos without aggitating the dog is this purely for an indication of its raw behaviour. I ask this as IMO a RAW untrained socially aggressive dog has one vision and thats to fight and win, he will bite on natural reaction with plenty of dominance.. 'Its as if the desire is to get the job over and done with'..!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 10, 2011, 09:42:42 AM
Eu nu am spus ca nu este curajos cainele ci ca nu stiu daca intr-o situatie reala va ataca. M-a facut sa cred asta din cauza reactiei sale in timpul si la intreruperea atacului. Orice caine care are instinct de prada dezvoltat cu f mult antrenament poate sa ajunga sa muste real daca este in lesa dar daca este liber sunt sigur ca nu va ataca. Reactia unui caine care face paza este alta... In scoala mea de dresaj am dresat peste 2000 caini si am avut ocazia sa vad multe tipuri de caini si doar 5% din rasele de paza si aparare fac paza adevarata. De aceea am spus ca ar trebui sa vedem cainele intr-o situatie reala, adica sa ii puna botnita si sa il dea pe cineva dar fara sa-l agite. Dupa cum am inteles, persoana doreste sa vada daca intr-adevar poate sa se bazeze pe caine daca este atacat. Orice caine daca este antrenat pe costum sau manson si regizeaza la antrenamente situatiile care au fost , poate sa se comporte in acest fel dar intr-o situatie reala este cu totul diferit si poate sa aiba surprize.
I didn't said that the dog is not courageous but I don't know if he will attack in a real situation. I believe this because of his reaction during and at interruption of the attack. Any dog with prey instinct developed with very much training can get real bite if the leash is on but if he is free I'm sure he will not attack. The reaction of a guard dog is different... In my training school we have trained over 2000 dogs and I had the opportunity to see many types of dogs and only 5% of guard and defense breeds are true. That's why I said we should see the dog in a real situation, that is, to put him a muzzle and give it to someone but not agitate him. As I understand, the person really wants to see whether could based on the dog if it's attacked. Any dog trained on a suit or sleeve and training directed at issues that were can behave in this way but in a real situation is quite different and can have surprises.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 10, 2011, 02:30:23 PM
Thanks MS, I am going to find out more about this DDR dog. Jay has been all over the world testing dogs, and if he says this dog is a real dog, that is exactly what he is. As you know, there are few GSDs (comparitively) that are "real."
Multumesc MS, voi cauta sa aflu mai multe despre acest caine DDR. Jay s-a plimbat prin lume testand caini, iar daca el spune ca acest caine este pentru real, atunci asa este. Dupa cum stii, mai sunt putini CG "reali".
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 11, 2011, 07:34:46 AM
eu nu spun ca nu este de real cainele din clip ci ca nu pot sa imi dau seama din acea testare Despre Fax Wegas Saga cainele lui Leo pot spune ca poate sa muste si pe real deoarece a facut atacul cu botnita si am vazut determinare cu care vrea sa muste cainele Daca proprietarul cainelui din clip vrea sa vada daca poate sa se bazeze pe caine in situatii reale poate sa o faca fara testul unui dresor sau sa creada ce spun eu Poate sa puna botnita cainelui si sa simuleze ca il ataca cineva , fara ca inainte cainele sa fie agitat daca cainele ataca cu determinare atunci poate sa il foloseasca pentru protecti daca nu sa caute alt caine
I'm not saying that the dog from the clip is not for "real" but I can't tell that from the testing. About Fax Wegas Saga, Leo's dog, I can say that he can bite real because he made the muzzle attack and I saw the determination that wanna bites. If the owner of the dog want to see if he can reliance on him in real situations he can make the test without the help of a trainer or believe what I say. He can put the dog a muzzle and simulate that someone is attacking him, without formerly agitating the dog . If the dog attacks with determination than he can use him for protection, if not, he can search for another dog.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 11, 2011, 07:41:30 AM
o sa rog pe cineva sa faca traducerea sa nu intelegeti altceva cu google translate
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 11, 2011, 07:54:36 AM
Santos, I think I agree with what you are saying mostly, if you are saying that an attack on a passive decoy could be a better test than a dog being agitated first and then sent. But the first advice was to make a dog hate the decoy to make them bite well, and I also think that was good advice. However, in a test, not training, it gets confusing. Are you saying that an untrained dog should attack someone that isn't being aggressive before it would be considered a real dog? Cause I would disagree with that.
I have seen PSA trials where dogs are required to attack passive (non-agitating) decoys, but some if not most of those dogs were trained in baby steps to do so. So I can show video of a dog doing an attack on a passive decoy in muzzle, but it might not mean anything (that it is a real dog) if it was trained to do so in small steps and the man isn't fighting him. I think more than the tests itself, to determine whether a dog is "Real" or not takes the observation of an expert such as yourself, Bob and Jay and others who actually are working the dog in whatever test. It's not always clearly visible (maybe not ever) in video clips, but it's the best we have to work with aside from explanations.
For me, if I have a dog that has never been tested or trained and he attacks someone for no reason, he will be a dead dog. That is instability in my book. However, if I train a dog up to follow my command no matter if the decoy is aggressive or not, he better do that, too, for a case in which someone might have a weapon and isn't overtly being aggressive. We are probably on the same page but just having a lack of communication with each other.
Santos, cred ca sunt de acord cu ce spui in mare parte, daca te referi la faptul ca un atac pe un infractor pasiv ar fi un test mai bun decat daca inainte cainele ar fi agitat si abia apoi trimis. Insa primul sfat a fost sa facem cainele sa urasca infractorul pentru a-l musca bine si consider ca a fost un sfat bun. Oricum, intr-un test, nu dresaj, ne putem incurca. Spui cumva ca un caine neantrenat ar trebui sa atace pe cineva care nu este agresiv pentru a fi considerat caine de real? Pentru ca nu voi fi de acord cu asta. Am vazut la PSA caini care erau pusi sa atace infractori neagresivi (fara agitatie) dar majoritatea cainilor fusesera dresati cu pasi mici sa faca asta. Pot arata o filmare cu un caine care ataca cu botnita un infractor pasiv, dar s-ar putea sa nu insemne nimic (cum ca e un caine de real) daca a fost dresat cu pasi mici sa faca asta si infractorul nu se lupta cu el. Cred ca mai mult decat testul in sine, pentru a determina daca un caine este de "real" sau nu necesita observatia unor experti precum esti tu, Bob si Jay sau altii care chiar lucreaza cu cainii indiferent de test. Nu este intotdeauna vizibil clar (poate nu intotdeauna) in filmari, insa este ce avem mai bun pentru a lucra cu o parte din explicatii. Pentru mine, daca am un caine netestat si nedresat care ataca pe cineva fara motiv, va fi un caine mort. Asta inseamna instabilitate in opinia mea. In orice caz, daca dresez un caine sa-mi urmeze comenzile indiferent daca infractorul este agresiv sau nu, ar face bine sa faca asa, pentru cazul in care cineva are o arma si nu este vizibil agresiv. Probabil avem aceleasi pareri insa nu reusim sa comunicam prea bine.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on February 11, 2011, 08:01:25 AM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on February 11, 2011, 08:04:43 AM
;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 11, 2011, 08:10:04 AM
I am not arguing with you Santos, I was misunderstanding you. Yes, I agree with this, I thought you meant an untested dog needed to be put in muzzle and SENT on a decoy who was not agitating him. :grin: Sorry. Yes, Jay did all kinds of testing (not videotaped) with this dog over the course of a couple of days, and they know what he is. He is for real, even though he does not show it to your satisfaction on these two clips I have posted. The owner is very happy with his dog, who has ALREADY protected him in the past.
Nu ma cert cu tine Santos, te-am inteles gresit. Da, sunt de acord cu asta, am crezut ca tu ai spus ca la un caine netestat ii pui botnita si il trimiti la un infractor care nu l-a agitat. Da, Jay a facut tot felul de teste (nefilmate) cu acest caine in decursul a cateva zile si stie ce e. Este un caine de real, chiar daca el nu o arata indeajuns cat sa te satisfaca in aceste doua filmari postate. Proprietarul este foarte multumit de cainele lui, care l-a mai aparat DEJA in trecut.
I'm not saying that the dog from the clip is not for "real" but I can't tell that from the testing. About Fax Wegas Saga, Leo's dog, I can say that he can bite real because he made the muzzle attack and I saw the determination that wanna bites. If the owner of the dog want to see if he can reliance on him in real situations he can make the test without the help of a trainer or believe what I say. He can put the dog a muzzle and simulate that someone is attacking him, without formerly agitating the dog . If the dog attacks with determination than he can use him for protection, if not, he can search for another dog.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 11, 2011, 12:44:07 PM
Nici nu se pune problema de vreo cearta ci despre opinia fiecaruia dintre noi:) Eu am inteles ca ai cerut sfatul despre acel caine intrucat stapanul traieste intr-o zona periculoasa si daca poate sa se bazeze pe caine intr-o situatie reala. Pentru mine un caine de real inseamna un caine care il las in curte sau pe pe proprietatea pe care trebuie sa o pazeasca si nu poate intra nimeni fara acordul meu sau daca sunt pe strada si sunt atacat de un agresor, cainele sa atace fara sa ii dau eu comanda. Am spus ca stapanul sa faca testul cu botnita si sa nu agite cainele inainte in ideea ca daca ar fi real un atacator nu l-ar agita. In final, stapanul trebuie sa fie multumit de felul cum este pazit de cainele sau.
Nor was there any question of any argument, but opinion about each of us:) I understand that you asked for advice about that because the dog's owner is living in a dangerous area and if he can rely on the dog in a real situation. For me a real dog means a dog that I leave in the yard or a property that he has to guard and nobody can get in without my consent or if I'm on the street and I'm attacked by an aggressor, he attack without me giving him the attack command. I said that the owner make the muzzle test and not to agitate the dog before in idea that a real aggresor will not agitate him. Finally, the owner must be satisfied by the way that his dog guards him.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 11, 2011, 04:46:10 PM
:goodnews: I agree! :lol: :goodnews: Sunt de acord! :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 13, 2011, 08:03:48 AM
hehe... a little bit of tension in here .. that's fine by me, it tells me you guys are all believing in your experience and work... or that you may misunderstand stuff at times :grin: keep the comments coming! let's keep being "real" on this topic! :rockon:
hehe.. putina tensiune pe aici.. lasa ca e bine si asa, se vede ca aveti incredere in experienta si munca voastra.. sau ca interpretati gresit spuele altuia :grin: nu va opriti din postat! hai sa fim in continuare "reali" in topicul asta! :rockon:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 14, 2011, 06:41:01 PM
No tension from me, I defer to Santos in regards to training. :rockon: There is always a lack when training is viewed from clips or pictures without actually seeing a dog in person, and I don't take any criticism of a clip or picture personally. You know, unless it's my dog. :laugh:
Seriously, Santos is very respected by me.
Nici o tensiune din partea mea, eu doar am pareri diferite de cele ale lui santos in privinta dresajului. :rockon: sunt intotdeauna lipsuri cand lucrul este vizionat in clipuri video sau poze fara a vedea cainele personal, iar eu personal nu primesc critici in baza unor clipuri sau poze. Stii, doar daca e vb de cainele meu. :laugh:
Acum serios, il respect pe Santos f mult.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 12:44:05 AM
sure thing, i got that! But what i am saying is, it's better to have a bit of tension or "competition" in thoughts and arguments as long as it's all meant to be constructive, if we all agreed on anything or everything, than we would be most likely "sat" on flat ground, instead of "moving" in one direction or another (I think.. :) )
it's true, one can only judge in part, when analysis is done just by viewing videos.. and oh yes it's true, nobody can judge my own dog!! tazi :gunner: :grin:
just to say, I know Santos pretty well and I know he doesn't want to "take down" arguments that are different to his own. In fact, he is probably wishing he could work alongside Bob or Leo and put some training differences to test ;)
e adevarat, am inteles ce spui! Dar cred ca putina tensiune sau competitie in argumente nu e neaparat o idee rea, atata timp cat are natura constructiva; daca am fi de acord in toate, inseamna ca nu mai avem ce invata si ne-am plafonat (cred..)
asa este, putem analiza doar partial, atunci cand facem asta in baza unor clipuri online si da, asa este, nimeni nu-mi poate critica cainele!! tazi :gunner: :grin:
Sa mai adaug, il cunosc pe Santos suficient de bine incat sa stiu ca nu doreste sa "darame" argumente care sunt diferite de ale lui, de fapt, sunt sigur ca isi doreste sa lucreze cot la cot cu Bob sau Leo si sa puna la incercare diferentele de lucru
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 15, 2011, 01:39:36 AM
... just to say, I know Santos pretty well and I know he doesn't want to "take down" arguments that are different to his own. In fact, he is probably wishing he could work alongside Bob or Leo and put some training differences to test ;)
Very good, look like u need to work harder on behalf and make this (http://canisa-zimbris.com/forum/index.php?topic=316.0) happen then, wink-wink! ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 01:41:22 AM
yeah.. let's wait for things to come together and maybe in the long run we can put together a few days of training, good food and good laughs. I got a feeling it will take a while before that happened, but it's not impossible..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 01:42:24 AM
ohh.. right... you were talking about the one in Malaysia.. I was thinking of one done here in Romania.. ::shy::
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 15, 2011, 01:45:10 AM
let's see.. Romania, USA, Malaysia, Australia, the Philippines, the UK, .... did i miss one or two...?
Why not? Nothing is impossible for real dog keeper! ;) Let say one gathering every year, it just took only six years to complete ... if two venues a year, can be done in 03 years! By doing this, we build net work and we can share some bloodlines too!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 02:16:33 AM
hmm.. we will see.... :yes:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: RogerW on February 15, 2011, 05:24:13 AM
You didn't mention Texas. :grin:
Actually Bob may very well be talked into (by me!) a vacation to Romania to check out your training and dogs. He will have a vacation and was going to Holland to check out Dutchies, but he is starting to get interested in real deal GSDs. So, you guys may see him after all.
I may not be able to travel for a while, but we can sure host a nice working weekend of dogs on my kennel partner's 100 acre home place. It's out in the woods, you can see what we have working here and eat some good Texas food.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 07:19:22 AM
It's out in the woods, you can see what we have working here and eat some good Texas food.
you say Texas food, I think ENCHELADAS right away! :yes:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 15, 2011, 08:26:00 AM
eu chiar vreau sa port discutii pe teme de dresaj cu Bob, Leo ,Dux ,Tessa Si nu vreau ca ceilalti sa fie deacord cu mine ci ma intereseaza argumentele lor in special metode Am sa fac cateva clipuri cu pui cum incep sa ii pregatesc pentru paza
i actually do want to have talks on training methods with Bob, Leo, Dux, Tessa and I don't want every one to agree with me but I am interested in everyone's arguments, especially as far as training methods. I will make a few video clips to show how i start working young dogs in protection.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 15, 2011, 08:38:25 AM
i actually do want to have talks on training methods with Bob, Leo, Dux, Tessa and I don't want every one to agree with me but I am interested in everyone's arguments, especially as far as training methods. I will make a few video clips to show how i start working young dogs in protection.
Santos, I will do my best to provide my "arguments" when it required ;) :lol: Let the ball kicking then :gunner:
Santos, imi voi da silinta sa vin cu argumente cand e cazul ;) :lol: atunci sa inceapa meciul :gunner:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 15, 2011, 09:12:57 AM
nu vreau sa inceapa meciul ,ci sa inceapa discutia Daca fiecare venim cu cate o ideie atunci putem sa facem un dresaj mai de calitate
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 15, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
nu vreau sa inceapa meciul ,ci sa inceapa discutia Daca fiecare venim cu cate o ideie atunci putem sa facem un dresaj mai de calitate
Yes Santos, I read u well, I am just being playful and thought of to cheers up a bit on this topic ;) ::peace::
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 16, 2011, 09:49:29 AM
sa va spun cum incep eu cu cainii sa ii formez pentru paza reala pana la 3 luni le dezvolt instinctul de prada ;adica ma joc cu carpa cu mingea De la 3 luni scot carpa si nu ii mai dau sa prinda decat la varsta de 10 luni cand fac agresivitate cu atentatorul Pana la 10 luni fac doar agitatie ca in clipul de la vanzari cumparari
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 16, 2011, 10:23:40 AM
de ce faceti tocmai asa?..care-i scopul fiecarei etape?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 16, 2011, 11:01:45 AM
daca fac joaca cu carpa pana fac agresivitate cu atentator cainele va crede ca atentatorul se joaca cu el Eu trebuie sa fac cainele sa fie neancrezator fata de straini Dar trebuie sa ai si material genetic de calitate ca sa il poti face din instinct de aparare,daca nu merge din aparare il voi face din instinct de prada
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 16, 2011, 11:58:54 AM
daca fac joaca cu carpa pana fac agresivitate cu atentator cainele va crede ca atentatorul se joaca cu el Eu trebuie sa fac cainele sa fie neancrezator fata de straini Dar trebuie sa ai si material genetic de calitate ca sa il poti face din instinct de aparare,daca nu merge din aparare il voi face din instinct de prada
ca sa faceti un caine de sport pentru realitate ..cum procedati?..am vazut pe internet ca multi dresori folosesc o masa unde leaga cainele si-l ameninta pana intra in aparare(din cauza ca nu are unde se eschiva)..ce parere aveti despre metoda asta?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 16, 2011, 01:00:49 PM
sa va spun un secret, nu pot eu sa fac un caine de real Daca nu are genetic instinct de paza nu poate fi caine de real Cand ma refer la caini de real nu ma refer numai la cei care ataca la comanda ci la cei care pazesc proprietatile si sunt si caini de patrula
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 16, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
de cand e asta "secret"? :lol:
santos, ai umblat la sticulta..? :manga: era vorba ca pe-aia o pastrezi pt mine cand mai ajung la Iasi :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 08:33:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHqB98vvxmE
daca analizam clipul ,dupa ce ne dam seama daca catelul latra din instinct de prada sau din instinct de aparare
if we watch the video closely, how can we tell if the pup barks out of prey pr defense
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
la varsta asta nu are cum sa latre decat din prada, ei raspund la obiectul agitat
at this age they would be barking out of prey, they react to the agitated object
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 08:43:16 AM
urmareste bine clipul
watch the clip closely
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 08:47:06 AM
urmareste bine clipul chiar latra din instinct de paza si el si femela puii nu il cunosc pe agitator
watch the clip closely both the male and the female bark out of defense the agitator is a stranger to the pups
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 08:53:08 AM
la 3 luni jumate... n-as prea crede... si eu am dus-o pe Axa la 4 luni la infractor pe care nu l-a vazut niciodata, de fapt nu mai facusem nici un ex. de agitatie pana atunci si, ai vazut clipul 9cel cu Axa la 4 luni) ai vazut ce reactie a avut. parerea mea e ca la varsta asta nu ai cum sa vezi in actiune inst de paza la catei.. e doar parerea mea..
at 3,5 mo old... i wouldn't say so.. i also had Axa agitated for the very first time in her life by someone she has never seen before and you all saw her reaction on that video of her at 4 mo old. In my view, you can't really see the defense in action at this age.. it's just my opinion..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 08:56:18 AM
poate sa spuna si ceilalti parerea ca nu se supara nimeni mai mult as vrea parerea dresorilor
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 08:58:20 AM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: bobo70 on February 17, 2011, 09:06:54 AM
Imi dau si eu cu parerea,.... asa ca nespecialist. Imi place reactia lor la zgomt, la pocniturile de bici nu se intimideaza deloc, ba chiar se focalizeaza si mai tare pe infractor. Insa miscarea cozii, in cazul ambilor, imi spune ca mai degraba au chef de harjoneala. Cred ca este o combinatie de instincte pe care nici ei nu o au definita inca. Asa vad eu din afara.... :undecided: Sunt curios care este parerea lui Santos.... Ne-ai prezentat clipul si nu ti-ai dat cu parerea despre reactii. :)
I will mention my opinion.. as a non nonprofessional. I like their response to the noise, they don't get intimidated at all by the whip strikes, they actually focus better on the agitator. Judging by their tail movement, i would say they would rather want to play rough. I guess we're talking about a combination of instincts that i for one can't name. that's how i see it from where I am.... :undecided: You showed us the clip but you haven't commented yet yourself :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 09:14:48 AM
poate sa comenteze orcine ca nu se supara nimeni dar dresorii pot sa vada mai bine din instinct de paza latra si Greif al lui Kandalin la 2 luni
anyone can comment, nobody will be offended, but trainers may make a better point. kangdanlin's Greif was barking out of defense at 2 months old
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 09:23:03 AM
hai Leo comenteaza
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 17, 2011, 09:25:12 AM
Thank You for the honor, I will do so when some one post the above replies in English ;) so that I dont make any mistake via google online translate :devil:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 09:47:01 AM
am vizionat clipul de cateva ori; este acolo un moment unde masculul bate in retragere, deci percepe potentiala 'amenintare" si da, sa spunem ca raspunde din aparare; dar femelutza e pusa pe joaca cat cuprinde. parerea mea de nespecialist.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 17, 2011, 10:04:25 AM
asta vroiam sa spun si eu, ca greif al meu dadea din codita in clipul ala la 2 luni...spunea cineva ca de fapt cainele acolo arata nesiguranta :laugh: :)))... eu zic ca faptul ca dadea din coada arata ca nu ii era frica...nu cred ca este obligatoriu sa aiba coada teapana , ca sa putem spune ca este in aparare...eu unul apreciez atitudinea , expresia fetei cainelui
ultima data cand am fost la iasi sa-l duc am inteles exact cam cum arata un caine in aparare
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Leo Pui on February 17, 2011, 10:08:29 AM
daca analizam clipul ,dupa ce ne dam seama daca catelul latra din instinct de prada sau din instinct de aparare if we watch the video closely, how can we tell if the pup barks out of prey pr defense
To me, those pups especially the one that further from the car is "asking" to be release to play as he being trigged by the movement!
cum vad eu, cateii astia mai ales cel mai indepartat de masina "cer' sa fie eliberati sa se joace fiind atrasi de miscare!
urmareste bine clipul. chiar latra din instinct de paza si el si femela, puii nu il cunosc pe agitator watch the clip closely. both the male and the female bark out of defense, the agitator is a stranger to the pups
I do not agreed that at this age that he is barking for or to defend (referring to the one that further from the car)! The main reason I said so ... it is because, the said pup has not being work, he doesnt know how to re-act in proper defense yet even though he may has good defend instinct! Therefore, my point of view from watching this video ... I say, it is not on prey, not on defend but play!
Nu sunt de acord ca la varsta asta latra din aparare (ma refer la cel mai indepartat de masina). principalul motiv fiind, cum ziceam.. catelul nu a fost "lucrat", nu stie cum sa re-actioneze din propria aparare, chiar daca de fapt are inst bun de paza. De aceea, opinia mea, judecand dupa acest clip... as spune ca nu e in prada nici in aparare, ci doar joaca!
poate sa comenteze orcine ca nu se supara nimeni dar dresorii pot sa vada mai bine din instinct de paza latra si Greif al lui Kandalin la 2 luni anyone can comment, nobody will be offended, but trainers may make a better point. kangdanlin's Greif was barking out of defense at 2 months old
Yes, I saw kangdanlin's the 02 months old young pup's video ... to me, this pup has strong territoriality guarding instinct. In the video, it also show ... when he was confronted, the pup back-off a bit and re-charge soon the "bad-guy" back-off!
da, am vazut clipul cu greif junior la 2 luni.. din p meu de vedere catelul are instinct teritorial f puternic. Tot in video, se vede.. cand e confruntat, catelul se retrage usor si re-ataca iar 'infractorul" se indeparteaza
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 10:40:25 AM
a vazut bine Zimbris ca spre sfarsitul clipului facand mai multa presiune pe catel a inceput sa bata in retragere dar daca agitatorul sa indepartat sa dus iar spre el; am sa mai fac 2 clipuri unul cu puii care latra dupa prada si unul cu catei care se joaca femela este mai dura decat masculul dar este mai tacuta. Este una dintre femelele din clipul "temperament pui" . Urmareste in clip numai femela
Zimbris noted well that towards the end of the clip, as more pressure was made the pup stepped back a bit and re-charged as the agitator ran away; I will make 2 more clips, one with pups who bark in prey and one with pups at play the female pup is tougher but also more quiet than the male pup. she was featured in the "temperament pui" video. watch the female closely in the clip.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 11:00:01 AM
tin minte, cand am fost la tine si i-am vazut pe Tek (apropos, sa ni-l mai arati!) si sora lui proaspat veniti de la Roman.. atunci da, catelusa aia latra in inst de aparare sau chiar in lupta as indrazni sa spun, atunci cand ingrijitorul s-a facut spre ea. Parul zburlit pe spate, latrat gros, privire f serioasa, in nici un caz vb de joaca
I remember, when i came to Iasi and I saw Tek (by the way, post some new pictures of him) and his sister as they just returned from Roman... back then yes, that female pup was definitely barking in defense and I would even dare to say, in fight. Upright hair on the back, low pitch bark, serious look in the eyes, far from play mood altogether
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 17, 2011, 12:25:48 PM
femela care este sora Tek este ultima din partea stanga in clipul cu agitatia masculul din clipul acesta este cel mai bun pui scos de mine pana acum si il voi opri pentru reproductie si se numeste Watt
the female sister to Tek is the one far left in the agitation clip the male is the best pup i produced this far and will keep him for future breeding
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 17, 2011, 12:48:46 PM
clipul cu agitatia - care, asta de mai sus, sau vorbim de clipuri diferite..? :think: dupa calculele mele, Tek si sora lui sunt deja namile...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on February 17, 2011, 07:26:28 PM
If anything one of the pups is frustrated and this IMO is caused by being provoked. Whilst the other pup doing 360 ' turns is not so intimidated and sees more of a game. If a stranger walks towards puppy without provoking and pups shows defensive reaction than this would be more of an indication of insecurity/suspicion, which can be worked on to build confidence as an adult. The rythm and depth of bark in defense is differant to what is being showed in this clip. High cocky tail set and deep bark with minimal raising of hackles is what i would like to see..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 18, 2011, 12:12:04 AM
clipul cu agitatia - care, asta de mai sus, sau vorbim de clipuri diferite..? :think: dupa calculele mele, Tek si sora lui sunt deja namile...
cred ca se refera la clipul ala din cladire cu agitatia
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: kangdanlin on February 18, 2011, 04:44:19 AM
totusi putem vorbi de tehnici de dresaj de transfer de la sport la dresaj de paza si protectie atunci cand avem un caine cu instincte bune pentru realitate, dar care a fost dresat pentru sport
still we can talk about training techniques for transferring a dog with strong civil instincts that was trained for sport
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: mihai68 on February 18, 2011, 09:04:08 AM
Urmarind discutia purtata aici eu inteleg ca daca un caine: 1/ este suspicios cu strainii - neprovocat ii latra, se repede la ei 2/ atunci cand se pune presiune poate da inapoi iar daca atacatorul (agitatorul) se retrage, atunci cainele revine - lucru care in timp cand cainele capata incredere nu se mai intampla (sa dea inapoi)
atunci acest caine, cel putin potential, are instincte de paza. Este corect? sau am inteles totalmente gresit?
Monitoring this particular dialog I concluded that if a dog: 1 - is suspicious towards strangers - will bark at them although unprovoked, will even charge 2 - when under pressure they may back off and if the agitator (bad guy) backs off too, then the dog re-charges - and in time as the dog gains more confidence will not back off again
the, such a dog, has good gurading instincts. is that right or did I get it wrong?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Santos on February 18, 2011, 10:28:59 AM
depinde de caine ,daca este pui sau daca este matur La un caine tanar se admite sa se retraga daca este pusa presiune pe el ,dar la cei maturi este interzis
depends on the individual dog, whether is a pup or an adult one. if a pup, backing off is normal when under pressure, but not when it comes to adult dogs
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: mihai68 on February 18, 2011, 11:29:21 AM
deci daca este pui este ok afirmatia mea? si pana la ce varsta se aplica afirmatiile mele?
so if a pup, my statement is correct? and to what age limit does it apply?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on February 21, 2011, 10:33:59 AM
nu cred ca e nevoie de super-cunostinte in domeniu.. este absolut normal ca un caine mai tanar sa dea inapoi cand se pune presiune mai mare asupra lui. Insa un caine adult (daca intr-adevar are raportul de instincte corespunzator) in nici un caz nu va da inapoi (asta si in cazul in care s-a lucrat corect cu el).
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on March 23, 2011, 09:15:49 AM
In the early stages of training a young novice dog, would it be better to have the same helper ? Or use differant helper/agitators in various situations to build defense and/or confidence to new evironment ?
In primele etape de dresaj ale unui caine tanar, incepator, este bine sa se foloseasca acelasi atentator? Sau se foloseasca atentatori / agitatori diferiti in situatii diferite pt dezvoltarea inst de aparare si/sau a increderii in imprejurimi noi?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on March 25, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
I would go for the second option...
Eu aleg a 2a optiune..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on March 26, 2011, 01:14:45 AM
Thats the same option i would go for.. If genetics is there than we could have gradual buiding of confidence whilst in defense.. What are the best signs to look out for in the early stages of defense drive, would you say Body language or Tone of bark ? Dont really know when the best time is for the 'hidden sleeve' work to begin..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: zimbris on October 11, 2011, 10:24:30 AM
pt cei care vor sa comenteze / posteze pe marginea acestor secvente
for those of you willing to comment on these images
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgdNEOJ40g
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on October 30, 2011, 11:55:39 AM
In continuare la clipul mai sus postat de catre Dani, il pun pe acesta. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGuYvC46M68&feature=related
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: fabius.m on October 31, 2011, 11:10:45 PM
foarte tari cainii, ala alb e dog argentinian nu?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on November 01, 2011, 12:19:54 AM
Da. ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Postez din nou campionul de anul asta, imi place cum lucreaza si cum arata. E un caine marisor, cu 39 kg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPrORNDuAVE
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 21, 2012, 12:17:16 PM
Hank impresioneaza la obedienta, dar in rest...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 12:22:40 PM
Nici mie nu-mi prea place cainele.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:17:10 PM
Cred ca imi place pt ca ma asteptam sa vad ceva mai "slab" (in felul meu de a vedea lucrurile) pt un caine predominant vestic. De cand cu urmaritul WUSV-urilor si BSP-urile, cel mai mult m-a impresionat Amigo de Zamat (Tom z PS pe linia tatalui). Cainele n-a percutat cum a vrut arbitrul dar mie mi-a placut.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 01:22:13 PM
De cand cu urmaritul WUSV-urilor si BSP-urile, cel mai mult m-a impresionat Amigo de Zamat (Tom z PS pe linia tatalui). Cainele n-a percutat cum a vrut arbitrul dar mie mi-a placut.
Da, si mie imi place cainele si imi amintesc ca l-ai tot mentionat cu cateva ocazii. Nu lucreaza atat de corect cum ar fi placut altora (facea anumite greseli) dar are nerv.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:24:59 PM
Da, si mie imi place cainele si imi amintesc ca l-ai tot mentionat cu cateva ocazii. Nu lucreaza atat de corect cum ar fi placut altora (facea anumite greseli) dar are nerv.
Asta e clipul care mi-a atras atentia asupra lui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6kld1Qm5gM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 21, 2012, 01:27:45 PM
Cred ca imi place pt ca ma asteptam sa vad ceva mai "slab" (in felul meu de a vedea lucrurile) pt un caine predominant vestic. De cand cu urmaritul WUSV-urilor si BSP-urile, cel mai mult m-a impresionat Amigo de Zamat (Tom z PS pe linia tatalui). Cainele n-a percutat cum a vrut arbitrul dar mie mi-a placut.
Vestic, vestic, dar macar sa se joace cum trebuie cu mansonul ala. :lol:
Stiu ca-i luase fata Javir, care a punctat mai bine.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Vestic, vestic, dar macar sa se joace cum trebuie cu mansonul ala. :lol:
Stiu ca-i luase fata Javir, care a punctat mai bine.
Mda... Mie mi-a placut Amigo ca nu a lucrat in maniera tipic sportiva, cu moaca la handler (ceea ce puncteaza mai mult - ca deh, control "deplin" asupra cainelui)... Bine, eu gandesc si postez prin prisma unuia care vrea un caine care sa se tavaleasca cu agresorul pe strada, nu sa ma priveasca in ochi asteptand urmatoarea comanda. Ma gandesc... cred ca e usor sa fi impresionat de caini de lucru cand esti la un eveniment de asemenea nivel.. si de multe ori, o simpla reactie in curte iti comunica ce poate cainele, de fapt. Dar multi imi vor spune ca asta e o caterinca.. nah, fiecare cu ce cauta/vrea/promoveaza etc..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:35:17 PM
Yep, chiar acum m-am pus sa-l revad, il am salvat.
Mie chiar imi place cainele si, are o structura si un look ceva mai atipic. Tom a transmis o masca mai aparte/stipica. Ahh.. aveam un clip vechi, lung de vreo 2 minute, cu Tom z PS dar nu mai stiu unde l-am salvat.. cred ca l-am sters.... :cry:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
Mie chiar imi place cainele si, are o structura si un look ceva mai atipic. Tom a transmis o masca mai aparte/stipica.
Nu arata deloc rau cainele, stiu insa ca au fost si ceva discutii pe seama look-ului sau, pare-mi-se legate de pozitionarea urechilor sau ceva asemanator.
Ahh.. aveam un clip vechi, lung de vreo 2 minute, cu Tom z PS dar nu mai stiu unde l-am salvat.. cred ca l-am sters.... :cry:
:spank:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:41:15 PM
Uite, pt rahaturi (scuzati expresia) de genul celui de la minutul 1.0 (ezitare.. etc, spune-i cum vrei) cainele pierde puncte. Nu se puncteaza CE face cainele sau atitudinea lui fatza de agresor odata ce e fatza in fazta cu el, ci cat de corect/matematic lucreaza. Ar trebui sa se numeasca SportHund, nu SchutzHund...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KljKlnCpQNM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 01:41:56 PM
Practic, se cauta robotzei...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 21, 2012, 01:45:39 PM
Amigo e focalizat pe atentator, se vede. ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:48:34 PM
Uite, pt rahaturi (scuzati expresia) de genul celui de la minutul 1.0 (ezitare.. etc, spune-i cum vrei) cainele pierde puncte. Nu se puncteaza CE face cainele sau atitudinea lui fatza de agresor odata ce e fatza in fazta cu el, ci cat de corect/matematic lucreaza. Ar trebui sa se numeasca SportHund, nu SchutzHund...
Desi e sport, ar trebui sa primeze atitudinea cainelui, nu dresajul lui.
In box, spre exemplu, daca intr-o repriza punctezi bine, dar dai si un cot, nu te depuncteaza imediat - ci eventual daca mai faci asta - si in principiu repriza e a ta. Asa ar trebui si aici; reguli, ca reguli, dar sa se urmareasca ceea ce conteaza mai mult si nu neaparat o mica greseala.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:52:08 PM
Ahhh.. e cainele ala de l-am mai postat in forum, care din 4 atacuri lansate, in 3 culca atentatorul la sol.. pe ala mi-ar fi placut sa-l vad la BSP :pretty2:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on September 21, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
Ahhh.. e cainele ala de l-am mai postat in forum, care din 4 atacuri lansate, in 3 culca atentatorul la sol.. pe ala mi-ar fi placut sa-l vad la BSP :pretty2:
:yes: Cello Banholz cumva?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:54:03 PM
Desi e sport, ar trebui sa primeze atitudinea cainelui, nu dresajul lui.
In box, spre exemplu, daca intr-o repriza punctezi bine, dar dai si un cot, nu te depuncteaza imediat - ci eventual daca mai faci asta - si in principiu repriza e a ta. Asa ar trebui si aici; reguli, ca reguli, dar sa se urmareasca ceea ce conteaza mai mult.
Daca hotaram ca e vorba de 2 elemente diferite, atunci da, cainele in sport sa puncteze dupa regulament, punct. Dar ma indoiesc ca Stephanitz asta a avut in minte. Dar hai ca ma lungesc intr-o discutie veche..... :cheesy:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:54:31 PM
Ahhh.. e cainele ala de l-am mai postat in forum, care din 4 atacuri lansate, in 3 culca atentatorul la sol.. pe ala mi-ar fi placut sa-l vad la BSP :pretty2:
Daca hotaram ca e vorba de 2 elemente diferite, atunci da, cainele in sport sa puncteze dupa regulament, punct. Dar ma indoiesc ca Stephanitz asta a avut in minte. Dar hai ca ma lungesc intr-o discutie veche..... :cheesy:
Da, oricum cine ii cauta la monte, ar trebui sa sa vada cainii cum s-au comportat, nu doar sa ceara lista cu clasatii si gata.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
Da, oricum cine ii cauta la monte, ar trebui sa sa vada cainii cum s-au comportat, nu doar sa ceara lista cu clasatii si gata.
Pai cam asta e trendul mi se pare... cainele clasat bine o pune de mai multe cateluse iar asta nu e intocmai mod de a asigura viitorul rasei. Revenind la subiect, sa spunem ca sunt demodat dar, imi placeau anii cand un caine anume domina scena, in ultimii ani titlul de campion in lucru umbla de la caine la altul. Chiar si asa.. cei care vor sa invete ceva genetica - sa se puna sa studieze pedigreele cainilor clasati mai in frunte si sa culeaga factorii comuni.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 21, 2012, 02:18:08 PM
Avand in vedere ca rasa e in crestere din punct de vedere al calitatii, e normal sa apara campioni dupa campioni. Vorba aia, anul si carlanul. :)
Lasand gluma, cred ca banul are si el un cuvant greu se spus.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 21, 2012, 10:28:32 PM
Eu raman la parerea ca in cazul multor caini ce ajung in top in competitie, de fapt este premiat dresorul (sau pregatirea cainelui) nu cainele in sine. Nemtii (si nu numai) au montat mereu cu cainele iesit campion si nu s-au ales cu ceva cu 6 viteze. Ma gandesc la cainii DDR, daca te uiti in pedigreele multor caini contemporani, tragi concluzia ca nu s-a montat mult cu siegeri ci cu anumiti caini, care nu s-au clasat in top. Zorro Laager Wall este un exemplu. Exceptii ar fi Don Rolandsteich si Held Ritterberg care s-au clasat si in za top. In fine, ce incerc sa spun este ca neamtul estic, cel putin initial, nu se ghida dupa ce caine iesea sieger, ci dupa ce vedea cu ochii lui.. imi place gandirea asta! Am avut discutii si discutii pe aici prin forum pe seama cainilor, care sunt buni pt lucru si de ce etc etc.. concluzia la care am ajuns in timp este ca unii sunt mai indragostiti de lucrul cu cainele decat de caine, iar in ce ma priveste, sunt de partea cealalta. Chiar si asa, imi place sa urmaresc un caine care lucreaza frumos intr-o competitie de nivelul asta. Sincer vad si caini "no-name" care lucreaza mai cu determinare si n-au niciotreaba cu competitiile dar nah, nu sunt arbitru. Vad clipurile demai sus si-mi vine si mie sa ies cu Briska la o miscare, mai de BSP de curte :grin:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 22, 2012, 12:05:55 AM
hehe.. ca o mica paranteza.. citesc si prin forumuri germane si mai dau de afirmatii gen "da, e un caine bun, atat ca si conformatie cat si in sport"... nu "in protectie"...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 22, 2012, 01:23:10 AM
In fine, ce incerc sa spun este ca neamtul estic, cel putin initial, nu se ghida dupa ce caine iesea sieger, ci dupa ce vedea cu ochii lui.. imi place gandirea asta!
Da, dar neamtul comunist avea nevoie de caini strong pentru politie si armata, caini care sa muste si in momente de presiune, si de aia cautau in special caracterul cainelui. Deci nu mergea cu de aia care intr-o zi aveau chef sa muste, in alta nu.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 22, 2012, 01:32:11 AM
Da, dar neamtul comunist avea nevoie de caini strong pentru politie si armata, caini care sa muste si in momente de presiune, si de aia cautau in special caracterul cainelui. Deci nu mergea cu de aia care intr-o zi aveau chef sa muste, in alta nu.
E discutabila treaba... au fost canise DDR care cautau sa promoveze caini duri si au fost canise DDR care aveau ca prioritate "conformation", cum zic americanii astia care m-au disperat cu conformation-ul lor.. Dar in principiu da, fosta Cehoslovacie si fosta RDG selectau caini buni.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 22, 2012, 01:34:56 AM
Ok, dar politia si armata alegeau dupa caracter. Nu vad de ce-ar fi ales altfel.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 22, 2012, 01:46:35 AM
Ok, dar politia si armata alegeau dupa caracter. Nu vad de ce-ar fi ales altfel.
Da.. dar in anii recenti au fost ei ei afectati de ce se intampla in cercurile de crescatori. Am ajuns si pe la statii de crestere politienesti (am postat ceva clipuletze prin forum) si am vazut asta cu ochii mei. Parte buna este ca mai sunt inca exemplare bune!! Dar e musai sa se gaseasca si femele bune pt ei.. genetica, frate, genetica..............
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 22, 2012, 04:05:30 AM
Cred cu tarie ca pentru a produce pui buni, ai nevoie neaparat ca ambii imperecheati :) sa fie buni. Altfel, daca astepti doar dintr-un mascul bun, zmei, ramai cu asteptatul. :grin:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 22, 2012, 04:15:05 AM
Cred cu tarie ca pentru a produce pui buni, ai nevoie neaparat ca ambii imperecheati :) sa fie buni. Altfel, daca astepti doar dintr-un mascul bun, zmei, ramai cu asteptatul. :grin:
Depinde cum anume definesti "bun", in contextul asta; iti vor spune si crescatori de caini din alte rase ca, poti imperechea mascul bun cu o mamaliga de catea si sa iaza zmei cum le spui tu. Linia o trage genetica iar daca am avea control asupra astui fapt, trompetele s-ar gasi doar la magazinul de muzica. ;)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 22, 2012, 04:24:50 AM
Bun, adica sa se incadreze in caracteristicile rasei. Si care ar fi procentajul de bun in conditiile in care s-ar monta doua exemplare la poli diferiti? Zic ca mic, in comparatie cu un caz in care ei ar fi apropiati ca nivel.
Intr-adevar genetica are mersul ei, nu-i poti impune, dar o poti pune la incercare, ca sa zic asa.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 22, 2012, 04:30:23 AM
Bun, adica sa se incadreze in caracteristicile rasei. Si care ar fi procentajul de bun in conditiile in care s-ar monta doua exemplare la poli diferiti? Zic ca mic, in comparatie cu un caz in care ei ar fi apropiati ca nivel.
De ce anume am pus intrebarea - poti avea o catea care musca mansonul etc, e corecta anatomic dar care e mai moale, noi am spune ca e "ok" - la asa ceva ma refer cand spun "mamaliga". Nu vorbesc de o catea slaba la extrema, pt ca ea va transmite si gene nedorite, indiferent de aportul liniei paterne sau de calitatile regasite chiar in linia ei. Bun.. spun asta mai mult in baza informatiilor decat a experientei, eu nefiind unul care a montat atat de mult, ba din contra.
Quote
Intr-adevar genetica are mersul ei, nu-i poti impune, dar o poti pune la incercare, ca sa zic asa.
Pai nu asta au facut si fac crescatorii? :) In unele cazuri au dat de aur, inn alte cazuri de regret.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 27, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
Chiar ma gandeam la asta; in cativa ani de zile prevad tot felul de detalii mai mult sau mai putin amuzante, ca efecte "secundare" ale sportului.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on September 27, 2012, 12:50:52 PM
Pare previzibil oarecum ca se va incerca tot felul de jokerii, sa transforme totul in circ. :Sad:
L.E.: pusesei tu o filmare cu un cal, care dansa ca o adolescenta incalzita cu un gin. :lol: Cred ca multora li s-ar ridica parul in cap daca ar vedea si caini maimutarindu-se in halul ala.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on September 27, 2012, 12:55:35 PM
Pare previzibil oarecum ca se va incerca tot felul de jokerii, sa transforme totul in circ. :Sad:
Da, tin minte cum spunea Dux ca se va intampla cutare sau cutare lucru si... s-au adeverit cuvintele lui. Totul parca se transforma intr-o smecherie gandita bine astfel incat sa aduca bani. Iar daca animalul percuteaza in competitie... what more do you want, where is the problem? Sau sa-l citez pe Martin Lawrence in "National Security" - what the problem is? :grin:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on October 06, 2012, 11:53:24 AM
In another topic i mentioned about the very few dogs who score a '3' on the 4th digit.. Which scores the dogs temperament.. Would it be fair to say that these dogs have an "active" aggression trait.. Rather than a dog who scores a '5' is considered to be friendly relaxed and VERY hard when provoked.. Then would this mean this dog is more RE - ACTIVE in his behaviour.. ??? Hope i made some sense, in what i'm trying to say...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 06, 2012, 12:10:39 PM
In another topic i mentioned about the very few dogs who score a '3' on the 4th digit.. Which scores the dogs temperament.. Would it be fair to say that these dogs have an "active" aggression trait.. Rather than a dog who scores a '5' is considered to be friendly relaxed and VERY hard when provoked.. Then would this mean this dog is more RE - ACTIVE in his behaviour.. ??? Hope i made some sense, in what i'm trying to say...
Oh gees.. I need to really understand what you're saying before I can reply.. from what you are saying, I think I like the 5 scoring type.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on October 06, 2012, 12:11:43 PM
Since we're focusing on temperament, which of these is ideal and/or lacking in todays lines...????
A bit of irony.. are you kidding me?? The modern dog cannot be found under any of those descriptions :grin: Seriously, I would have thought that would be 4 and 5 in my view. Quite a lot of modern dogs are "reserved" and that's because of fear, not suspicion towards strangers. But that's my opinion, I could be dead wrong.. what's your own say on this?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on October 06, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
I don't understand why "3" number and "5" number are in the same aggression mode?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 06, 2012, 10:35:55 PM
Quite a lot of modern dogs are "reserved" and that's because of fear, not suspicion towards strangers. But that's my opinion, I could be dead wrong.. what's your own say on this?
I believe that a balanced dog would be that who scores either 5 or 6.. But those who would be categorised as having a score of '4' would be virtually non existant.. Boban for example what would be his temperament ?? Considering he was not a dog that could be not be observed and/or judged.. I would say that '3' and '4' are similar.. With '4' being stronger with NO flight or conflict in his mind.. Maybe the Government Law sectors those days got there hands on those who had the sharp and dangerous approach.. And the dogs we know of were stable and balanced with conformation ofcourse..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 07, 2012, 10:28:16 AM
I believe that a balanced dog would be that who scores either 5 or 6.. But those who would be categorised as having a score of '4' would be virtually non existant.. Boban for example what would be his temperament ?? Considering he was not a dog that could be not be observed and/or judged.. I would say that '3' and '4' are similar.. With '4' being stronger with NO flight or conflict in his mind.. Maybe the Government Law sectors those days got there hands on those who had the sharp and dangerous approach.. And the dogs we know of were stable and balanced with conformation ofcourse..
Hmm.. I need to take some time and read this through again, I like the topic but I somehow don't manage to grasp all the info.. Love the topic, it's an important one, given that nowadays wanting a tough dog is not easy.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on October 08, 2012, 02:26:16 AM
Dani i am using the DDR Rating System for dogs, which is on Johns East German Shepherds site.. In the Wertmessziffer "measured valued number".. The 4th column on this chart gives a score on the dogs temperament.. I would say the dog that scores '4' would be that dog that most could not handle , and not very desirable for your average 'Joe"... Interesting to take note to which dogs that we know on the Data Base have this score of '4'..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 08, 2012, 09:48:22 PM
Do you mean the old dogs..? Hmm, true, now you got me going... :cool:
Dani i had looked at pics over and over again, over the few years.. So for a change, i thought i'd look into this rating system - Wertmessziffer. They should be more clear with there definitions in regards to temperament..! But they were clear that this system, was to take note of extra sharp dog especially.. Its in da blood...!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 08, 2012, 11:40:30 PM
But they were clear that this system, was to take note of extra sharp dog especially.. Its in da blood...!
I guess that tells you the east Germans were indeed after good dogs and hey, no wonder they promoted Zorro LW big time although the dog did not score high in the East Sieger. Like i said I'll take a close look at the rating system, you got me curious.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on October 09, 2012, 11:35:30 PM
I guess that tells you the east Germans were indeed after good dogs and hey, no wonder they promoted Zorro LW big time although the dog did not score high in the East Sieger.
Imagine those that did not make it to the arena.. Those that were possibly too sharp for the shows, they would of been living in some isolated country town perhaps..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 10, 2012, 02:00:02 AM
Imagine those that did not make it to the arena.. Those that were possibly too sharp for the shows, they would of been living in some isolated country town perhaps..
Those ones would have definitely made it to my arena!!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on October 10, 2012, 02:28:04 AM
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 11, 2012, 11:55:01 PM
I was watching the video below... this stuff should be called "prey work", not "protection work". In my view, it would go the same for "protection" section in many world class level competitions. The dog just wants the tou, not to fight the (potential) aggressor. And the video is a perfect example you could do the so-called "protrection" with just about ANY GSD, regardless of their actual potential. (this is a DDR pup)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R066lSelF80
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: AXX Police Tracker on October 12, 2012, 06:42:09 AM
prey drive 100% here..no interest in guard instinct at all. the pup is watching only to get his "prey", his reward. You could do that with a pointer or with a lab, also... to bad
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on October 12, 2012, 09:39:24 AM
prey drive 100% here..no interest in guard instinct at all. the pup is watching only to get his "prey", his reward. You could do that with a pointer or with a lab, also... to bad
Well, considering this is a DDR pup as well and, according to what many say about this type of GS dog, they mature slower than the average dog, so to start protection work so early in life is a bad ideea..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on November 07, 2012, 07:26:26 AM
In training we talk about drives whether its prey or defense, and like to condition the dog to its full potential.. But another type of drive which is inborn also, and very hard to condition, is 'Pack Drive'.. ! Dogs with LOW pack drive i believe have more courage in working as they are independant and not your dog that likes to be petted and cuddled by the owner.. Dogs with LOW PACK DRIVE are more for real IMO, they take control of the job...
Cand vorbim de dresaj mentionam driv-ul, prada sau aparare si ne place sa antrenam cainele la potential maxim.. Dar mai este un instinct nativ de mentionat si greu de antrenat/conditionat, cel de haita. Cred ca un caine cu instinct de haita mai slab dezvoltat este mai curajos pt ca este mai independent si nu genul de caine caruia ii place sa fie mangaiat si alintat de stapan.. In opinia mea cainii cu instinct de haita scazut sunt mai buni pt lucrul de real, pt ca iau controlul situatiei..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on November 07, 2012, 08:53:03 AM
Dogs with LOW pack drive i believe have more courage in working as they are independant and not your dog that likes to be petted and cuddled by the owner.. Dogs with LOW PACK DRIVE are more for real IMO, they take control of the job...
I believe that too and let me tell you why that is; Ben and other dogs I've known to be real warriors were not that keen on fighting other dogs or establish the chief position when with other dogs. I don't believe that a good "real" GS dog HAS to be high on pack drive to be also a great man-stopper; I know many dogs that are great fighters among other dogs but run to the woods when facing a real (human) danger.
Si eu cred asta si-ti spun de ce; Ben si alti caini pe care i-am stiut, caini foarte buni in paza sau in general lucrul pe om, nu erau atat de atrasi de stabilirea ierarhiei intre alti caini, de fapt chiar pasivi. Pe de alta parte stiu multi caini care "sparg" in stanga si dreapta intre caini dar cand e vorba de paza sunt slabi.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on November 08, 2012, 11:02:26 AM
I believe that too and let me tell you why that is; Ben and other dogs I've known to be real warriors were not that keen on fighting other dogs or establish the chief position when with other dogs. I don't believe that a good "real" GS dog HAS to be high on pack drive to be also a great man-stopper; I know many dogs that are great fighters among other dogs but run to the woods when facing a real (human) danger.
Si eu cred asta si-ti spun de ce; Ben si alti caini pe care i-am stiut, caini foarte buni in paza sau in general lucrul pe om, nu erau atat de atrasi de stabilirea ierarhiei intre alti caini, de fapt chiar pasivi. Pe de alta parte stiu multi caini care "sparg" in stanga si dreapta intre caini dar cand e vorba de paza sunt slabi.
Within the family home the dog that has "low pack drive" is independant and can be a difficult dog to live with, being stubborn and not the type to want being petted. Onyx was this kind of dog, who i believe in a 1 on 1 situation would of made a mess out of an intruder.. Because having those traits of independance he would deal with pressure with greater courage..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on January 26, 2013, 06:53:21 AM
Imaginea asta transmite foarte bine un mesaj pe marginea caruia s-a vorbit deja mult in forum, anume ca am transformat un lucru serios intr-o joaca de copii.
Imaginea asta transmite foarte bine un mesaj pe marginea caruia s-a vorbit deja mult in forum, anume ca am transformat un lucru serios intr-o joaca de copii.
Din ce vad eu, priza e facuta corect. Plus ca pare genul de caine care pune labele pe atentator si scutura la muscatura, deci e un caine bun de paza. :)
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: istvan on February 05, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
Daca avea zgarda de forta ascutita si era terorizat cred ca va placea. :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on February 05, 2013, 11:12:45 PM
Daca avea zgarda de forta ascutita si era terorizat cred ca va placea. :lol:
...?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 25, 2013, 11:29:46 PM
Protectia in sport:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjcPBKBg9Q
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on March 25, 2013, 11:49:57 PM
Cred ca e de fapt o subcultura sportul canin in sine.. deja in cativa ani de zile cred ca in asta va consta elementul de "protectie canina". Europa loveste puternic in ce ar trebui sa fie un caine de paza si protectie prin intermediul sportului (si tot ce inseamna el) iar atunci cand apare un exemplar cu adevarat bun in protectie (caine de real :lol: ) este probabil vazut ca un potential pericol public si pus pe bara. Momeala asta au muscat-o bine si cei de la noi din tzara si "ii dau bice" chiar daca materialul genetic (in faza lui curenta bine-nteles, pt ca trecutul arata mai bine) este asemanator cu cel al unui ursulet de plush. Incep sa cred ca te implici in asa ceva si in timp te indragostesti de sport in sine, de faptul ca reusesti prin dresaj sa trecei de anumite "trials" si daca mai si pica diplome, nu te mai apasa aspectul genetic. Discutiile pe tema asta vor deveni treptat, lupte cu mori de vant, pt ca din nou, multora le lipseste elementul de comparatie (altfel nu-mi explic incapatzanarea de a vedea un caine mediocru ca fiind BUN). Multi, in aria asta, iubesc sportul in sine, SPORTUL. Daca animalul sare de la cutare distanta in atentator si are impact bun si priza plina si calma,"cainele e bun".. GRESIT! Aaa.. sau, e bun pt SPORT, asa da. Da pune un Gheorghe de-ala care are palma cat malul de la muncit pamantul sa loveasca un caine de-asta "bun", sa vezi cum se duce cainele sa incerce un Starbucks ceva.. Cand vine hotul sa te praduiasca, eventual daca stie si cu ce se mananca un caine de-asta "bun", vine cu un manson, face frumos priza, elibereaza mansonul si e fericit si cainele si hotul/hotii, corect? M-am saturat sa spun acelasi lucru in %(*& forme.. cine stie ce vrea, aia sa primeasca.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on March 25, 2013, 11:59:44 PM
Cand vine hotul sa te praduiasca, eventual daca stie si cu ce se mananca un caine de-asta "bun", vine cu un manson, face frumos priza, elibereaza mansonul si e fericit si cainele si hotul/hotii, corect?
Si chiar au fost cazuri. :lol:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on March 26, 2013, 12:01:26 AM
si daca mai si pica diplome, nu te mai apasa aspectul genetic.
Si chiar si cupe...cu cat mai mari si mai grele, cu atat mai bine. Iti faci un arsenal de cupe mari si grele acasa, iar in caz ca dau hotii peste tine, arunci cu ele in ei. :pretty2:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 26, 2013, 12:59:06 AM
Cred ca influentele astea care privesc blandetea cainelui, sociabilitatea cu strainii vin si din America, nu doar din Europa. Am citit in forumul ala mai vechi cum spuneau unii care traiesc acolo, ca un caine trebuie sa fie prieten cu toti oamenii, altfel este un pericol pentru societate. lips.sealed Bine ca nu-s raufacatorii...
De asemenea, am vazut recent, luna trecuta parca, un reportaj la tv in care niste romani cresc si dreseaza CG in America. Spuneau ceva de genul ca ei merg pe firul standardului rasei atat din punct de vedere al aspectului - adica spate lasat plus culoarea negru cu roscat -, cat si din punct de vedere al temperementului - adica iubitor cu familia, sociabil cu oricine. :dizzy: Intr-un cuvant: sou. Dezinformare! Si uite asa deschide omul tv-ul, vede episodul, si-si zice: Vreau si eu un caine de asta, Ciobanesc Nu Mai Stiu Cum, sa fie membru al familiei si o gazda ospitaliera pentru oricine! Serios? Ce-ai zice de o pisica sau de un catelus de ala pufos de odaie? :)
Cat despre asa-zisa protectie in sport, mai bine i s-ar schimba numele pentru ca: - nu se aplica nicio presiune pe caine; - nu exista elementul de spontaneitate; - nu exista momentul de luare prin surprindere; - nu exista nimic de protejat.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 26, 2013, 01:01:40 AM
Cand vine hotul sa te praduiasca, eventual daca stie si cu ce se mananca un caine de-asta "bun", vine cu un manson, face frumos priza, elibereaza mansonul si e fericit si cainele si hotul/hotii, corect?
Mansonul costa prea multi bani, ar fi o investite consistenta pentru un gainar. Vine cu o carpa. Nu asa incepe dresajul de protectie in ziua de azi? :Sad:
Si chiar si cupe...cu cat mai mari si mai grele, cu atat mai bine. Iti faci un arsenal de cupe mari si grele acasa, iar in caz ca dau hotii peste tine, arunci cu ele in ei. :pretty2:
:laugh:
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: VINCENT on March 26, 2013, 01:06:40 AM
De ce naiba nu ma crede nimeni cand spun ca un caine bun se naste bun?Un caine bun nedresat este superior unui caine slab si dresat profi, eu asa cred.
Why the heck nobody believes me when I say that good dog is good from birth? A good but untrained dog is superior to a week but trained dog, that's my view.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 26, 2013, 01:09:35 AM
Absolut! Cel mai greu cuvant de spus il are genetica.
Definitely! Genes speak loudest than all else.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on March 26, 2013, 01:10:26 AM
De asemenea, am vazut recent, luna trecuta parca, un reportaj la tv in care niste romani cresc si dreseaza CG in America. Spuneau ceva de genul ca ei merg pe firul standardului rasei atat din punct de vedere al aspectului - adica spate lasat plus culoarea negru cu roscat -, cat si din punct de vedere al temperementului - adica iubitor cu familia, sociabil cu oricine. :dizzy: Intr-un cuvant: sou. Dezinformare!
Cred ca era vorba de Canada mai exact, de George si Andreea Zamfirescu, canisa de Amalaberg.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 26, 2013, 01:12:09 AM
Da, de aia am zis America pentru ca nu mai stiam daca e vorba de SUA sau Canada.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on March 26, 2013, 02:11:37 AM
De ce naiba nu ma crede nimeni cand spun ca un caine bun se naste bun?Un caine bun nedresat este superior unui caine slab si dresat profi, eu asa cred.
In circumstante reale, da. In sport, evident dresajul puncteaza si bine-nteles si cainele trebuie sa aiba aptitudini corespunzatoare. Acuma, sunt convins ca sunt si in randurile cainilor de sport exemplare bune, dar datorita sablonului aplicat in dresaj nu prea mai ai cum sa-i diferentiezi sau ma rog, ai cum, daca stii ce anume sa cauti, sa vezi. In real life cases, yes. But in sport, it's the training that scores dog but then of course the dog must have some genetic qualities to perform. I am pretty sure you can find real dogs among sport dogs but the way they are trained from early stages one couldn't make the difference anymore.
Quote
In circumstante reale, da.
:grin: cred ca ma injura multi ca folosesc cuvantul asta. Repet, LIPSESTE ELEMENTUL DE COMPARATIE (cainii anilor trecuti, mai exact, pe care multi nu l-au avut in fatza ochilor)! In fine.. daca "realul" ca si concept e o extrema pt uni, hai sa nu ducem si discutia asta in vreo extrema, oricum nu vom fi toti de acord in toate.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on March 26, 2013, 06:35:09 AM
A bit said lately on this topic. We come to some sort of conclusion the difference between sport and reality ? I only have my cell phone to use, and unable to translate unfortunately, as I did on my PC..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: istvan on March 26, 2013, 07:51:19 AM
Pune mana si lucra zilnic cu cainele ca altfel poti sa mori prost.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: guest on March 26, 2013, 07:52:05 AM
A bit said lately on this topic. We come to some sort of conclusion the difference between sport and reality ? I only have my cell phone to use, and unable to translate unfortunately, as I did on my PC..
That's pretty good typing considering you are using your phone, good job! Basically I am just making a point that "real dog" is not poetry, as some refuse to accept the very concept. Some of the guys are saying a dog is either good or not. I said a dog may be good for sport, not necessarily for real situations. Many dogs perform very well on the training field, biting a sleeve, having been taught to do that in prey from an early age. I strongly believe if you apply more pressure on many if not most of these dogs, things will look different. Many refuse to accept that as a reality but those who've been in the picture for a few good years, know very well the heck I am talking about.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on March 26, 2013, 07:53:53 AM
De ce naiba nu ma crede nimeni cand spun ca un caine bun se naste bun?Un caine bun nedresat este superior unui caine slab si dresat profi, eu asa cred.
Why the heck nobody believes me when I say that good dog is good from birth? A good but untrained dog is superior to a week but trained dog, that's my view.
Hai sa dezvoltam putin ideea asta. Inainte sa imi dau cu parerea voi preciza ca in 1994 lucram cu cainele, doar ca nu am facut lasare la comanda; in rest, cainele meu (Ben) executa comenzile de baza excelent, doar ca nu statea cu ochii infipti in ai mei, cum e trendul acum. Facea si "taras" si "mort", in fine, comenzile care s emai dadeau in anii aia.. Am vrut sa precizez asta ca sa nu ma aleg cu certari academice din partea unora.
Daca vorbim STRICT de aspectul paza si aparare, inclinin in directia mentionata de tine; un caine cu instinct foarte prezent de lupta nu va avea nevoie de prea multe "directionari", nativ isi va face treaba. Un caine cu instincte mai slabe va fi ajutat prin dresaj dar cred, cu convingere, ca ceva mai multa presiune aplicata asupra cainelui il va determina sa "faca pasi inapoi". De fapt nu doar cred, am si vazut asta de-alungul anilor, nu doar in randul cainilor CG. Dux a avut la lucru foarte multi caini si in anumite perioade de timp eu am pus mansonul pe mana.
Este foarte probabil ca anumite lucruri vor putea fi punctate doar cu testari reale (folosind cainii pe care ii avem in dotare desigur).
Pana atunci, Istvan, o sa te rog sa accepti pareri diferite si sa-ti etalezi contra-argumentele fara sa jignesti; toti vrem sa excelam in toate privintele, ariile de activitate si avem pareri, unele care pot fi dovedite iar altele care raman in stare "gazoasa".
Let's expand this a little bit. But before that, I'll just make a note that back in mid 90's I was working my GS dog, didn't do out on command but I did most of everything else. Obedience done excellent but without the eye to eye contact like you see in nowadays competitions. My dog (Ben) was also "playing dead" and "crawl". I am making this note so I don't get myself told off academically by some of you here.
If we are strictly talking about protection aspect yes I will agree with the idea that a good yet untrained dog is superior to the (genetically) weaker but trained dog. A weaker dog will be "helped" through training but I do believe once more pressure is applied, many or most of these dogs will back off. In fact I've seen that time and time again, dux trained many dogs throughout the years and several times I was the decoy.
It's very likely that some of the things we talk about can or will be proved only by performing some real testing on our dogs.
In the meantime I expect that we treat each other with respect and accept someone else's opinion and do not move to taking things personally. We all want to excel and some of the claims we make we can back up, some will remain just claims.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on March 26, 2013, 08:18:00 AM
Reg I will make some time to translate some of this stuff so you can engage.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on March 26, 2013, 08:19:06 AM
N-am inteles, de ce trebuie sa apara atacuri la persoana?! Aici e vorba de niste conceptii, de niste directii pe care oamenii le au si le urmeaza. Invatati-va sa atacati ideea si nu persoana!
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on March 26, 2013, 08:44:42 AM
That's pretty good typing considering you are using your phone, good job! Basically I am just making a point that "real dog" is not poetry, as some refuse to accept the very concept. Some of the guys are saying a dog is either good or not. I said a dog may be good for sport, not necessarily for real situations. Many dogs perform very well on the training field, biting a sleeve, having been taught to do that in prey from an early age. I strongly believe if you apply more pressure on many if not most of these dogs, things will look different. Many refuse to accept that as a reality but those who've been in the picture for a few good years, know very well the heck I am talking about.
A dog that is conditioned purely for the field for example is most likely genetically bred for this purpose IMO. And in regards to pressure well I agree with Vincent that its either got guts(courage) or not. No amount of repetitive training on or off the field/streets will increase the size of its balls..! The balance of 60% defense 30% prey might suit real life scenario, even with no training what so ever. I say this as I have owned a dog -Onyx.. Who had the sound and look of a socially aggressive dog. I'm open to other people's opinions and views, to what they have witnessed or owned. At the end of the day we will learn and have a slightly different view, with time and experience I believe..
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Man Stopper on March 26, 2013, 08:46:16 AM
Imaginea asta transmite foarte bine un mesaj pe marginea caruia s-a vorbit deja mult in forum, anume ca am transformat un lucru serios intr-o joaca de copii.
Exact ce zice Ben mai sus...mai vin cu o imagine 'graitoare'. Fetita de mai jos are 11 ani...
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: prototype on April 14, 2013, 02:36:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDUEP4GQmds
Observ ca aceasta catelusa latra la carpa. Bun, ea va creste si va da o proba C intr-un examen de munca, schimbandu-se carpa cu mansonul. Bine, si atentatorul. Dar mai conteaza? Pentru ca intrebarea care vine acum e, pe cine protejeaza daca va latra la manson?
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Schwarz on April 15, 2013, 01:24:22 AM
O pregatesc doar pentru sport. Nu va apara pe nimeni.
In Europa se practica fff mult sportul canin. Exact cum unii merg la schi, altii la bazin, sau mai bine spus, la fel cum multi isi pregatesc masinile de competitie (drag, raliu, etc.) asa fac ei cu cainii - ii pregatesc pentru examene de lucru (sport).
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: ben on April 15, 2013, 03:50:08 AM
O pregatesc doar pentru sport. Nu va apara pe nimeni.
In Europa se practica fff mult sportul canin. Exact cum unii merg la schi, altii la bazin, sau mai bine spus, la fel cum multi isi pregatesc masinile de competitie (drag, raliu, etc.) asa fac ei cu cainii - ii pregatesc pentru examene de lucru (sport).
Adica exact ce a dus si inca duce la faultarea rasei. Punct.
Title: Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Post by: Schwarz on April 15, 2013, 04:37:32 AM