Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real

[prototype]

Absolut! Cel mai greu cuvant de spus il are genetica.

Definitely! Genes speak loudest than all else.

[guest]

De asemenea, am vazut recent, luna trecuta parca, un reportaj la tv in care niste romani cresc si dreseaza CG in America. Spuneau ceva de genul ca ei merg pe firul standardului rasei atat din punct de vedere al aspectului - adica spate lasat plus culoarea negru cu roscat -, cat si din punct de vedere al temperementului - adica iubitor cu familia, sociabil cu oricine.  Intr-un cuvant: sou. Dezinformare!

Cred ca era vorba de Canada mai exact, de George si Andreea Zamfirescu, canisa de Amalaberg.

[prototype]

Da, de aia am zis America pentru ca nu mai stiam daca e vorba de SUA sau Canada.

[ben]

De ce naiba nu ma crede nimeni cand spun ca un caine bun se naste bun?Un caine bun nedresat este superior unui caine slab si dresat profi, eu asa cred.

In circumstante reale, da. In sport, evident dresajul puncteaza si bine-nteles si cainele trebuie sa aiba aptitudini corespunzatoare.
Acuma, sunt convins ca sunt si in randurile cainilor de sport exemplare bune, dar datorita sablonului aplicat in dresaj nu prea mai ai cum sa-i diferentiezi sau ma rog, ai cum, daca stii ce anume sa cauti, sa vezi.
In real life cases, yes. But in sport, it's the training that scores dog but then of course the dog must have some genetic qualities to perform.
I am pretty sure you can find real dogs among sport dogs but the way they are trained from early stages one couldn't make the difference anymore.

In circumstante reale, da.

   cred ca ma injura multi ca folosesc cuvantul asta.
Repet, LIPSESTE ELEMENTUL DE COMPARATIE (cainii anilor trecuti, mai exact, pe care multi nu l-au avut in fatza ochilor)!
In fine.. daca "realul" ca si concept e o extrema pt uni, hai sa nu ducem si discutia asta in vreo extrema, oricum nu vom fi toti de acord in toate.

[Man Stopper]

A bit said lately on this topic.
We come to some sort of conclusion the difference between sport and reality ?
I only have my cell phone to use, and unable to translate unfortunately, as I did on my PC..

[istvan]

 Pune mana si lucra zilnic cu cainele ca altfel poti sa mori prost.

[guest]

Pune mana si lucra zilnic cu cainele ca altfel poti sa mori prost.

???
Atentie la exprimari...

[ben]

A bit said lately on this topic.
We come to some sort of conclusion the difference between sport and reality ?
I only have my cell phone to use, and unable to translate unfortunately, as I did on my PC..

That's pretty good typing considering you are using your phone, good job!
Basically I am just making a point that "real dog" is not poetry, as some refuse to accept the very concept. Some of the guys are saying a dog is either good or not. I said a dog may be good for sport, not necessarily for real situations. Many dogs perform very well on the training field, biting a sleeve, having been taught to do that in prey from an early age. I strongly believe if you apply more pressure on many if not most of these dogs, things will look different. Many refuse to accept that as a reality but those who've been in the picture for a few good years, know very well the heck I am talking about.

[ben]

Pune mana si lucra zilnic cu cainele ca altfel poti sa mori prost.

Cui te adresezi?

[istvan]

Lui Vincent.

[ben]

Lui Vincent.

Te-a jignit Vincent cu ceva?

[ben]

De ce naiba nu ma crede nimeni cand spun ca un caine bun se naste bun?Un caine bun nedresat este superior unui caine slab si dresat profi, eu asa cred.

Why the heck nobody believes me when I say that good dog is good from birth? A good but untrained dog is superior to a week but trained dog, that's my view.

Hai sa dezvoltam putin ideea asta.
Inainte sa imi dau cu parerea voi preciza ca in 1994 lucram cu cainele, doar ca nu am facut lasare la comanda; in rest, cainele meu (Ben) executa comenzile de baza excelent, doar ca nu statea cu ochii infipti in ai mei, cum e trendul acum. Facea si "taras" si "mort", in fine, comenzile care s emai dadeau in anii aia.. Am vrut sa precizez  asta ca sa nu ma aleg cu certari academice din partea unora.

Daca vorbim STRICT de aspectul paza si aparare, inclinin in directia mentionata de tine; un caine cu instinct foarte prezent de lupta nu va avea nevoie de prea multe "directionari", nativ isi va face treaba. Un caine cu instincte mai slabe va fi ajutat prin dresaj dar cred, cu convingere, ca ceva mai multa presiune aplicata asupra cainelui il va determina sa "faca pasi inapoi". De fapt nu doar cred, am si vazut asta de-alungul anilor, nu doar in randul cainilor CG. Dux a avut la lucru foarte multi caini si in anumite perioade de timp eu am pus mansonul pe mana.

Este foarte probabil ca anumite lucruri vor putea fi punctate doar cu testari reale (folosind cainii pe care ii avem in dotare desigur).

Pana atunci, Istvan, o sa te rog sa accepti pareri diferite si sa-ti etalezi contra-argumentele fara sa jignesti; toti vrem sa excelam in toate privintele, ariile de activitate si avem pareri, unele care pot fi dovedite iar altele care raman in stare "gazoasa".

Let's expand this a little bit.
But before that, I'll just make a note that back in mid 90's I was working my GS dog, didn't do out on command but I did most of everything else. Obedience done excellent but without the eye to eye contact like you see in nowadays competitions. My dog (Ben) was also "playing dead" and "crawl". I am making this note so I don't get myself told off academically by some of you here.

If we are strictly talking about protection aspect yes I will agree with the idea that  a good yet untrained dog is superior to the (genetically) weaker but trained dog. A weaker dog will be "helped" through training but I do believe once more pressure is applied, many or most of these dogs will back off. In fact I've seen that time and time again, dux trained many dogs throughout the years and several times I was the decoy.

It's very likely that some of the things we talk about can or will be proved only by performing some real testing on our dogs.

In the meantime I expect that we treat each other with respect and accept someone else's opinion and do not move to taking things personally. We all want to excel and some of the claims we make we can back up, some will remain just claims.

[ben]

Reg I will make some time to translate some of this stuff so you can engage.

[prototype]

N-am inteles, de ce trebuie sa apara atacuri la persoana?! Aici e vorba de niste conceptii, de niste directii pe care oamenii le au si le urmeaza.
Invatati-va sa atacati ideea si nu persoana!

[Man Stopper]

That's pretty good typing considering you are using your phone, good job!
Basically I am just making a point that "real dog" is not poetry, as some refuse to accept the very concept. Some of the guys are saying a dog is either good or not. I said a dog may be good for sport, not necessarily for real situations. Many dogs perform very well on the training field, biting a sleeve, having been taught to do that in prey from an early age. I strongly believe if you apply more pressure on many if not most of these dogs, things will look different. Many refuse to accept that as a reality but those who've been in the picture for a few good years, know very well the heck I am talking about.

A dog that is conditioned purely for the field for example is most likely genetically bred for this purpose IMO.
And in regards to pressure well I agree with Vincent that its either got guts(courage) or not.
No amount of repetitive training on or off the field/streets will increase the size of  its balls..!
The balance of  60% defense 30% prey might suit real life scenario, even with no training what so ever.
I say this as I have owned a dog -Onyx..
Who had the sound and look of a socially aggressive dog.
I'm open to other people's opinions and views, to what they have witnessed or owned.
At the end of the day we will learn and have a slightly different view, with time and experience I believe..