Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real

[RogerW]

I wanted to relay an interesting story regarding a police dog in our training group.  This dog was said to be a "real" dog, and seeing him work, I have no doubt he would bite; however, we had a very good example of why sport training is bad for even "real" dogs.

Back when the new group just started with Bob, my trainer...
the K9 officer and this dog were on a chase last winter at night time for a burglary suspect, the bad guy runs onto some wooded property and they are in hot pursuit.  Bad guy runs into a pond and is out of sight to the handler, although he can hear him wading through at least knee to waist-deep water.  Officer sends his dog toward the sound of the bad guy, hears a lot of commotion and suddenly his dog appears, with a coat in his mouth.   Bad guy gets away.
My trainer told the handler it was because of his training on equipment..his toy drive equal or more intense than his fight drive.  The handler said he truly believed that the dog "thought" he had the bad guy in his mouth, it was dark, wet, etc., etc.

So, instead of wondering, Bob took the whole team down there and and they reenacted the entire situation.  And every dog they took did exactly the same thing.  

These are dogs that policemen are depending on for their very lives at times.  Lots of work to do, but they will not make that same mistake now.

Slipping sleeves, carrying sleeves....why, except for sport, teach sport techniques?  There is a better way.

vreau sa va prezint o situatie interesanta cu un caine politist din grupuj nostru de dresaj. Cainele respectiv este descris ca fiind un caine de real, iar urmarindu-l la antrenamente nu ai avea dubii in privinta lui; chiar si asa, am avut parte de un exemplu clar de ce antrenamentul sportiv nu e bun pt un caine bun pt real.
Ma intorc la inceputurile noului grup, cu Bob, noul meu dresor..
In Decembrie anul trecut politistul si cainele in tema se aflau in urmarirea unui presupus hot, tipul respectiv a intrat intr-o zona impadurita iar urmarirea era in plina desfasurare. Tipul intra intr-un lac si iese din campul vizual al politistului, desi se puteau auzi zgomote tipice inaintarii intr-o apa care-ti vine cam pana la brau. Politistul a trimis cainele in zona de unde veneau zgomotele respective si au urmat alte zgomote care denotau actiune dupa care se intoarce cainele, cu o haina in gura. Infractorul a fugit. Dresorul meu i-a spus ofiterului respectiv ca asta s-a datorat antrenamentului tipic sportiv, instinctul de joaca a cainelui era egal sau mai intens decat cel de lupta. Politistul a spus ca el era convins ca animalul avea de fapt in gura prada / infractorul, dar era intuneric etc etc... Asa incat sa nu se mai lungeasca discutiile, Bob (dresorul) a dus echipa la locul faptei si au reconstituit scenariul respectiv. Si toti cainii au facut exact acelasi lucru (ca si cel politist).
Acestia sunt caini de care in anumite situatii depinde chiar viata politistului. Acum este mult de munca, dar cu siguranta nu vor mai face (in dresaj) aceleasi greseli.
De ce sa dresezi cainele in regim sportiv (fixat pe manson) cand exista modalitati mai bune?

[zimbris]

Roger thanks so much for posting this, it is good to gather various info to outline the importance of 'real' training. We have been accused in the past for turning this "real dog" concept into a big deal. To be honest, looking at how things are "moving" I wouldn't be too surprised if, in the years to come, the "real" aspect will be approached in message boards more than often.

Roger multumesc ca ai postat asta, este bine sa adunam informatii prin care sa subliniem importanta aspectului "real". In trecut noua ni s-a spus ca inventam un concept nou, "realul". Dar sincer, analizand "miscarile" din lumea CG-ului si a sportului canin, nu m-ar surprinde sa vad in anii urmatori ca subiectul "real" este abordat mai des in forumuri internationale.

[RogerW]

You're welcome, Dani, it's an important topic.

I started Drago off with a trainer (before I met Bob Manning) who I knew was very knowledgeable about German Shepherds, and he had taken several dogs to Sch. III, travelled Germany working and training.  Great trainer, very good guy and a friend.   I know that some folks like to start "real" training with sport techniques and then alter the training later to change the dog from having fun and learning good technique to becoming more and more serious, and I think with some dogs that has merit and this was what he would have done for me...someone told me that several roads can get you to your destination.  

But now I believe (even though I respect anyone who works dogs at all) that there has to be a way to train for the real protection dog from the very beginning so that you aren't Un-learning unnecessary and counterproductive behavior.

Cu placere, este un topic important.
Cu Drago am inceput dresajul (inainte de a-l cunoaste pe Bob manning) cu un dresor care avea multe cunostinte despre CG si a pregatit multi caini pt Sch III, calatoreste in Germania in vederea lucrului si dresajului. Bun dresor, tip de treaba si prieten bun. Stiu ca unii incep dresajul de 'real' folosind elemente din dresajul sportiv, mai tarziu ulterior modificand modul de antrenament pt a trece cainele de la o faza de joaca si invatare a unei tehnici bune, la a deveni din ce in ce mai serios si cred ca in cazul unor caini aceasta cale e eficienta si cam asta ar fi vrut el sa faca si cu cainele meu... cineva mi-a spus ca mai multe cai te pot duce la aceeasi destinatie.
Dar acum cred (desi respect orice lucrator cu cainele) ca trebuie sa existe o cale de a pregati cainele pt protectie 'reala' de la bun inceput fara a fi necesara alterarea metodei de lucru pe parcurs pt a dezvata cainele de un comportament nedorit si contraproductiv

[Man Stopper]

Reading this again or must of missed it, but well said Roger
Instead of switching from fun and games to more serious pressure applied, what would be some of the training applied if we wanted to avoid sport competition behaviour ?

recitesc asta sau poate am omis pasajul asta, dar bine spus Roger
In  ce priveste trecerea de la jocuri amuzante la lucruri ce implica presiune serioasa asupra animalului, care ar fi tehnicile de dresaj necesare asa incat sa evitam pe cele sportive?

[RogerW]

Well that's a good question and I am sort of new to this new type training that my own trainer does.  I think he either is a member now or will be once he is settled down in Afghanistan, so I won't speak for him, but I have seen him use a rag with a young dog...and when he does the dog is biting for real...like in hidden sleeve work, it doesn't work forever before the dog realizes it's not real..but that first bite they think it is if worked right.   (For example, Bob told me that he noticed that the decoy working Axa as a puppy was preparing her for sport but also was a good decoy because he was also not taking away too much her potential for real protection in the way he worked her).  
More of what I know for sure from my own observations has to do with what I think I should NOT to do as opposed what to do...for me....like not carrying sleeves or purposely turning your dog's back to the "bad guy" to run in a circle with a toy.   Teaching drive for and possessiveness of an inanimate object makes no sense when the bad guy is over there.   And not only people teach drive for inanimate objects, they then go on to breed for that trait instead of breeding for the instinct to actually protect.  I also think that people are in such a hurry to work their dogs that they start them way to young teaching them these wrong things, instead of waiting until they're older and capitalizing on the instincts that kick in when they are more mature.  Young dogs are taught against that, and the ones that are easiest to teach against it are bred (Sch comes to mind).

pai, este o intrebare buna iar eu sunt novice in acest tip de antrenemant dealtfel aplicat si de dresorul meu. cred ca fie e deja membru in forum, sau va deveni o data ce se va stabili in Afghanistan, asa ca nu voi vorbi in numele lui, dar l-am vazut juncadu-se cu carpa cu un caine tanar.. iar cand facea asra cainele musca serios.. ca in lucrul cu manson ascuns, nu dureaza mult pana ca cel mic sa se prinda ca nu e vb de ceva real.. dar ca prima priza / muscatura este 'reala" daca lucrul e facut bine. (De exemplu, Bob mi-a spus ca a observat ca atentatorul in clupul cu Axa cand era mica o pregatea pt sport dar in acelasi timp a fost un atentator pt ca nu a luat mult din potentialul ei pt lucru real, prin metoda lui de lucru).
Din ceea ce stiu eu mai degraba din propriile observatii, sunt convins de ceea ce NU trebuie sa fac.. cum ar fi sa nu care mansonul in gura sau in mod intentionat sa plimbi cainele cu mansonul in gura cu spatele la infractor. Nu are sens sa fixezi cainele pe un obiect nemiscator cand atentatorul se afla in zona. Si nu numai ca ei canalizaeaza drivul in felul asta, dar si produc caini cautand astfel de drive, in loc sa promoveze caini in baza instinctului nativ de protectie. Mai cred ca multi se grabesc sa-si lucreze cainii asa incat incep lucrul mult prea devreme si-i invata aceste elemente gresite, in loc sa astepte pana cainele mai creste si sa profite de instinctele care in mod natural intra in functiune atunci cand sunt mai maturi. Caini tineri sunt invatati opusul, iar cei care sunt cel mai usor de invatat aceste lucruri, tot ei sunt si reprodusi (imi vine acum in minte selectie tip Sch)

[Santos]

dresajul pentru real se face diferit de cel sportiv
si este bine sa nu se foloseasca elemente de dresaj sportiv pentru paza

[Man Stopper]

So sport training is using your typical training gear, and applying repetitive workouts(same place/same time)
Would real training be biting differant objects and focusing on Man and what he may throw or hit at the dog, and working at new locations on a regular basis.  
Santos or Roger could you give some better description on the key points to AVOID !!
If our aim was to achieve a Protection dog, rather than a Sport Sch dog.
Would teaching the dog to release on command, be a form of Sport training ?
    
Deci in dresajul sportiv se foloseste echipamentul mai traditional si se aplica amtrenamente regulate (de rutina - acelasi timp din zi, acelasi loc)
dresajul real presupune muscarea unor obiecte diferite si se tine focusul pe OM si ceea ce EL ar aunca inspre caine sau obiectul cu care ar lovi cainele, iar antrenamentele sa se desfasoare in locatii diferite.
Santos si Roger, vreti va rog sa mentionati lucrurile care trebuie EVITATE!!
Scopul fiind obtinerea unui caine de protectie, nu un caine sportiv de SCh.
Invatarea cainelui sa lase la comanda este un element de dresaj sportiv?

[RogerW]

If you get in a life and death situation and you have a dog that is real enough to engage and stay on a bite...or bite everywhere, whichever he does, he isn't going to listen to your command to out,no matter how many times he has done it on the field.  Not in my opinion.  I could be wrong, I haven't seen every dog, that's for sure.   But dogs know the difference.   When I used to judge catch dogs, a few people would tell me their dogs would "out" on command.  I would hate being close to them while catching, because to me that meant that he was not committed and there was going to be an even greater chance someone would get cut by the hog.    I want to have to break a dog off.    For safety and 3rd party evaluation I think an "out" is a good command and I will train it (and Bob will teach it) only after there is no doubt the dog is committed in all situations.   I won't be pulling a dog off if he bites someone, either, he just needs to do as much damage as possible until I can get a clear shot, so an out is not that important to me.

But my trainer also stresses that there are many roads to the same destination, dogs can be trained in all kinds of ways to reach the same goal.

I hope Bob will jump in here when he gets settled, he just got to Afghanistan day before yesterday.

Daca te afli intr-o situatie critica si ai un caine care e suficient de 'real" sa se implice in lupta si sa mentina muscatura / priza.. sau sa muste de unde apuca, una din cele doua, el nu se va supune ordinului de a lasa, indiferent de cate ori a facut lasarea pe terenul de antrenament. Cel putin nu in opinia mea. ma pot insela, desigur nu am vazut toti cainii. Dar cainii inteleg diferenta. Cand arbitram caini de vanatoare (mistreti), cativa proprietari imi spuneau ca patrupezii lor vor lasa la comanda. Nu vreau sa fiu pe langa caine cand se afla in plina actiune, pt ca pt mine asta insemna ca el nu era dedicat sarcinii si pe deasupra mai erau si sanse mari ca cineva sa fie ranit de mistret. Vreau sa pot opri un caine aflat in actiune. pt siguranta si alte evaluari, cred ca aceasta comanda de lasare e una buna si chiar o voi folosi (de asta se va ocupa Bob) numai dupa ce nu incape indoiala ca patrupedul este suficient de determinat sa se implice in situatii de orice fel. Nici nu voi trage cu forta un caine care musca pe cineva, vreau ca el sa produca cat mai multa "paguba" pana cand eu am 'vizor liber". dar Bob mai spune ca sunt mai multe cai de a ajunge la aceeasi destinatie, cainii pot fi dresati in mai multe feluri pt a se atinge unul si acelasi scop.
Sper sa se implice in forum si Bob, doar ce a ajuns in Afghanistan acum 2 zile.

[Man Stopper]

I like to use the "OUT" command in the beginning/early stages of training, and once i see that the young dog has a fairly good understanding and excepting the OUT... I would then avoid using the "OUT" command... This IMO then creates a continous winning of prey/biting, as the OFF switch command is not present. The teasing and keeping the dog in suspense should not be repeated too many times, especially when the dog reaches a stage when he loves to bite objects in various situations/confrontations. Reversing from OUT command to FIGHT command gives extra desire, the more desire there is, the more we see the FIGHT.   

[RogerW]

Like I say, many roads to the same destination.  I always taught "out" to the pups of my mixed dogs with their toys and kept it going the rest of their life in protection.   Since they don't lack drives or fight I never saw any problem with it, however I never realized how many sport techniques had been taught to me by everyone I  had ever trained with until I started with Bob.   
He and I talk a lot about how teaching something and then reversing it is an extra step that doesn't need to be there, and it happens a lot in training, which is why he trains for biting the man from the time they are puppies as much as maturity allows ...and without teaching biting equipment (I mean focusing on it in the standard sport technique way) and then "reversing" that to get them to bite the man later.  When they are biting to his satisfaction in all situations, then they are taught an out...no back and forth, no teaching "this" and then turning it into "that.".   But I need to let him explain his training.  Since his forte is fixing the problems that police dogs have from their sport training backgrounds, he has distinct views on how to skip that training that leads to those problems.   I have not raised up dogs as he does, yet.   I will say however, that I never knew how equipment fixated dogs are trained to be until I was shown.

[kangdanlin]

cant wait to hear what he has to say about sport vs police dogs..dog training is an extremly interesting subject to me

[Man Stopper]

If the owner creates drive with various objects, to chase retrieve and build grip. And come the day that the K9 is confronted by stranger(helper), would this earlier training, benefit the novice K9 when an hidden sleeve is suggested to the young dog.
Or is it that various equipment/objects are not needed, as this might lessen the seriousness or intention to bite for real ?
I personally like to build the drives and more so the bond with Casso with some chasing/biting objects and so on..
Although i wish to have hidden sleeve/body suit work from beginning, which is what your saying i think.
The K9 will focus on arm, leg and back And not only familiar equipment thrown in its face..

cant wait to hear what he has to say about sport vs police dogs..dog training is an extremly interesting subject to me

Kangdanlin i to find this topic on Sport/Police training, very interesting also.
And as Roger said that many roads lead to the same destination.
 

[Santos]

 trebuie evitat la cainele de real sa lasam mansonul ca recompensa ,recompensa este muscatura si iesirea cainelui invingator  din lupta.La ipo priza este fixa si calma muscatura foarte adanca si fixata pe mijlocul mansonului Eu prefer ca muscatura la cei de real sa fie cat mai nervoasa daca se poate sa mute priza si sa muste din toate partile in special de picior Lasarea la comanda face parte din dresajul de atac al cainilor de real Este bine sa fie facuta mai la sfarsitul dresajului mai ales pentru cainii cu un caracter mai slab
Sa traduca cineva ce nu a mai fost tradus

[kangdanlin]

trebuie evitat la cainele de real sa lasam mansonul ca recompensa ,recompensa este muscatura si iesirea cainelui invingator  din lupta.La ipo priza este fixa si calma muscatura foarte adanca si fixata pe mijlocul mansonului Eu prefer ca muscatura la cei de real sa fie cat mai nervoasa daca se poate sa mute priza si sa muste din toate partile in special de picior Lasarea la comanda face parte din dresajul de atac al cainilor de real Este bine sa fie facuta mai la sfarsitul dresajului mai ales pentru cainii cu un caracter mai slab
Sa traduca cineva ce nu a mai fost tradus

for the reality dog the sleeve shouldn't be given as reward, the reward is the bite and the victory of the dog at the end of the fight.In IPO the bite is fixe, calm and very deep on the middle of the sleeve.I prefere that the bite for the reality dog to be as "nervous" as possible, andis good to change the bite in different parts of the body specialy the leg.The OUT is a part of the reality dog training program.It is best to be done in the end part of the training, specialy with softer dogs

[kangdanlin]

Reading this again or must of missed it, but well said Roger
Instead of switching from fun and games to more serious pressure applied, what would be some of the training applied if we wanted to avoid sport competition behaviour ?

Decat sa trecem de la distractie si jocuri la presiune mai intensa aplicata, care ar fi cea mai buna metoda in cazul in care vrem sa evitam comportamentul tipic pentru sport?