Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real

[bobdog]

Once again, I really enjoyed watching these video's. Well except for the fact that here in Afghanistan, each video takes about 15 minutes to down load. lol I agree with some of what both of you are saying. Leo about the need to have a dog that knows how to handle multiple attackers and the other saying that it weakens the grip. I think the key is to find a balance. Where multiple attackers could and probably would attack this fast. In training I have it slowed down. Letting the dog hold the grip for a little longer before the next attacker comes in. Some times very slow, some times a little faster and only rarely very fast. If the dog will come off decoy number one to bite decoy number 2 every time, Then I don't feel the need to practice it this fas often. Another thing I have done with multiple attackers is have the dog lunging drive the decoy away, with no bite. This, as another exercise in training the multiple attacker scenario has several benefits. One it can be performed with out bite equipment, 2 It can be done at high speeds without the weakening grip concern and 3 It teaches the dog he has the power to drive the bad guy away sometimes with just his bark and lunge.
I also use a second attacker as a motivating way to sharpen the out. I will out a dog for a bite on a second handler several times, letting him hold each bite for a little while before the out and send on the second decoy. This serves two purposes. The first is that weakening grip thing. The second is to give the other decoy a moment on the last out to leave the area. So on the last out the dog comes running toward me thinking he is going to run past me to bite the other decoy, but this time he is not there. About the time the dog is about to get to me I command him to the heel position and down. The moment he does, I quickly praise and send for the final bite as the remaning decoy stimulates the dog. Long bite this time with much praise and my dying decoy. No out this time I ether gradually lift the dog off the bite, praising the whole time, or the decoy comes back to life slipping out of the jacket and runs off.
I have a video of some outs for a second decoy I might show. I am reluctant though because it was kind of a show and tell day with some non-dog people I know and both decoys in the videos know nothing about decoying lol. but the dog was sure enough in her bite work that it did not matter much, i am explaining some things more that i am working on the dogs training. lol



Inca o data, am vazut cu mare placere clipurile.Numai ca aici in Afganistan, fiecare clip se incarca in aproximativ 15 minute.Sunt de acord cu cateva din lucrurile pe care le spuneti ambii.Leo despre nevoia de a avea un caine ce stie sa faca fata mai multor atacatori si pe partea cealalta faptul ca lucrul asta slabeste muscatura.
Cred ca cheia este sa gasin echilibrul.Unde mai multi atacatori ar putea si probabil ca ar ataca atat de repede.In antrenament eu am incetinit lucrul asta.Lasand cainele sa tina priza pentru mai mult timp inainte sa vine urmatorul atacator.Uneori foarte incet, alteori ceva mai rapid si rareori foarte rapid.Daca cainele lasa primul atacator si sare sa-l muste pe al doilea de fiecare data, atunci nu simt nevoia sa exersez lucrul asta prea mult.Alt lucru pe care l-am facut cu atacatori multipli este sa lansez cainele spre atacator punandu-l pe fuga fara sa faca priza.
asta, este un alt exercitiu in antrenarea pentru scenariul cu mai multi atacatori care are cateva beneficii.Onul poate fi executat fara echipament pentru muscatura, 2 poate fi facut la viteze mari fara sa slabeasca muscatura, si 3 invata cainele ca el are puterea de a pune pe fuga atacatorul prin simpu latrat si prin inaintare.De asemeni folosesc un al doilea atacator ca motivare pentru executarea comenzii OUT.Voi comanda OUT pentru o muscatura pe un atacator secundar de cateva ori, lasandu-l sa mentina  putin muscatura inainte de lasare si-l trimit pe al doilea atacator.Asta serveste 2 scopuri.Primul este slabirea muscaturii.Al doilea este de a-i da celuilalt atacator un moment de la ultima lasare ca sa poata parasi zona.Deci pe ultima "lasare" cainele vine alergand spre mine crezand ca va alerga pe langa mine sa-l muste pe al doilea atacator, numai ca data asta el nu mai este acolo.
Despre momentul cand cainele este pe cale sa ajunga la mine ii comand sa treaca la picior si apoi culcat.Cand executa, il laut imediat si-l trimit inainte pentru muscatura finala in timp ce atacatorul ce a ramas stimuleaza cainele.Muscatura adanca de data asta cu recompensare din plin si cu atacatorul care "moare".fara comanda OUT de data aceasta ridic usor cainele de pe muscatura, incurajand tot timpul, sau atacatorul "revine la viata" renuntand la geaca si fuge scapand .
Am cateva clipuri cu "LASA" pe al doilea atacator pe care as putea sa le arat.Sunt putin reticent deoarece era un fel de zi "arata si prezinta" alaturi de alti oameni care nu se ocupa cu cainii iar cei doi atacatori nu stiu mai nimic despre munca de AJUTOR.Dar cateaua era destul de sigura pe muscatura asa incat nu a mai contat, explic mai mult decat aplic pe caine .LOL

[bobdog]

So Leo, you are a student of Mike McConnery?

Deci Leo, esti elevul lui  Mike McConnery? 

[Leo Pui]

Leo, I respect your training because you are actually training for a job that you know well.   You are ensuring the safety of civilians, and you are doing it so you ensure your business survives, and your handlers and staff survive.   That's work, and you have working dogs, which is the essence of what I like.  No matter which road a real working dog owner chooses, at least they are putting themselves on that road, and I pay attention when they speak of their work.

yeah.. it's probably wise to make a point that one may train their dog for real work BUT with different purposes in mind, so we don't have to draw a line and say "there is only one way", or anything of that sort..

Bingo ... 

[Leo Pui]

So Leo, you are a student of Mike McConnery?

I am not his student but I managed to learn some from his student who was my guru    I find his way of doing suit well in our training program by far! BUT, I never over-look from other's for I am "open-minded"  

What do you of this Mike then?


Nu sunt elevul lui dar am reusit sa invat ceva de la un elev de-al lui care este guru meu.  Cred ca felul lui de a face lucrurile se potriveste cel mai bine cu programul nostru de antrenament de departe, dar dar niciodata nu ignor ce spun si altii, am mintea deschisa 
Deci, ce crezi despre Mike?

[bobdog]

Just some of his basic philosophies. I have read a lot of his editorials. I have aways been intrigued by Baden k9? I would like to delve into his working service training further.

[Leo Pui]

Just some of his basic philosophies. I have read a lot of his editorials. I have aways been intrigued by Baden k9? I would like to delve into his working service training further.

Here is a video that showing on FAX, when my guru ask to send FAX and have him jump over for the very first time, I react and respond by saying that, no ... FAX cannot do that ... he have not being train this way!

My guru insist and I try a few times ... and true enough, FAX did not make the jump/climb over.  
It was me as the handler, who follow my "human" instinct that FAIL me and FAX!  I tend to stop just when I reach to the wall and FAX follow me!     I then follow the "instruction" and assist FAX to climb over by assisting him a bit ... boom, on the 3rd try, FAX success!  Check video

Aici este un clip cu FAX, cand gurul meu a cerut sa-l trimit pe FAX peste un obstacol pentru prima data, ca reactie am spus Nu...Fax nu poate sa faca asta, nu a fost antrenat !Guru a insistat si eu am incercat de cateva ori..si asa a si fost cainele nu a putut sari/catara obstacolul.
Eu ca si handler , care-mi ascult instinctul"uman", am determinat esecul cainelui!am avut tendinta de a ma pori cand am ajuns la zid iar FAX s-a luat dupa mine!apoi am urmat instructiunile si l-am ajutat pe FAX sa se catere peste ...si apoi boom, la a treia incercare cainele a reusit!..se vede in clip

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV--RfgAvYQ[/youtube]

From there, I learn "a dog is as good as his owner" or should I said, "a dog follow what his owner thought"!

[Santos]

atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase  Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui

[kangdanlin]

atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase  Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui

the 2 attacker scenario will ruin the bite, this is no problem becouse even a weakened bite can inflict serious damage.Bad thing is to ruind the dogs determination.this is what i noticed over the time, including VINER.Is hard to make the multiple attackers scenario and the dog to maintain a good determination.As for the training methods i think anybody can make his own personal method, and one can learn from anybody even the tiniest thing that can help you train.Iam not the advocate of sports dogs although i trained many sport dogs ,IPO, and i still train, but i prefere the classic patrol training witch is more efficient and there you can see the dog's value

[Santos]

Dupa cum a spus si Leo principalul lucru in dresaj este atasamentul cainelui de stapan sau de curtea in care locueste ma refer la dresajul de paza Este gresit sa credem ca daca tinem un caine izolat o sa devina mai agresiv plimbarile intaresc atasamentul si da incredere cainelui.

As Leo also said, the main thing is the dogs attachment to the owner, or the backyard he is living in, for the protection. Is wrong to think that if we keep the dog isolated it will become aggressive..The walks strenghten the attachment and gives the dog trust.

[Leo Pui]

atacul cu 2 atentatori strica muscatura , asta nu ar fi o problema deoarece si o mucatura mai slaba poate sa provoace rani serioase  Rau este ca stricam determinarea cainelui. Aceasta am observat la mai multi caini de-a lungul timpului inclusiv la Viner. Este foarte greu sa faci atacul cu mai multi atentatori iar cainele trebuie sa aiba o buna determinare. Cat despre metode de dresaj cred ca oricine poate sa isi faca o metoda proprie si de la fiecare poti sa inveti ceva chiar si un lucru foarte nesemnificativ care sa te ajute in dresaj. Eu nu sunt adeptul cainilor de sport cu toate ca am dresat foarte multi caini de IPO si inca mai dresez ,prefer dresajul clasic de patrula care este mult mai eficient si acolo se vede valoarea cainelui si utilitatea lui

the 2 attacker scenario will ruin the bite, this is no problem becouse even a weakened bite can inflict serious damage.Bad thing is to ruind the dogs determination.this is what i noticed over the time, including VINER.Is hard to make the multiple attackers scenario and the dog to maintain a good determination.

Hummmnnn, Like I said early, my view on training is for the bottom line ... sending the dog to knock down and apprehend the bad guys!  Or to serve some buying time for the owner to run away when it is in the position as personal protection dog!
I dont have any other intention to work on other than these two! 

As for the training methods i think anybody can make his own personal method, and one can learn from anybody even the tiniest thing that can help you train. I am not the advocate of sports dogs although i trained many sport dogs ,IPO, and i still train, but i prefere the classic patrol training witch is more efficient and there you can see the dog's value

Hell right! 

[bobdog]

Leo said, "A dog followed what his owner thought."

I understand this, I have experienced it, But I only if I do not think about it to hard. If I think about it to hard, it does not seem logical.
When my wife and I first got married, she had two big dogs. They were nice dogs but had had very little in the way of training. The house we were going to live in had a drive through gate at the front of the house. My kennels were in the back yard so we were going to keep her two dogs in the front when we were gone all day. This meant you would have to drive up, get out and open the gate, drive in, get out and shut the gate. She said,"how am I ever going to get them to stay while I pull the car in." The road in front had some traffic on it. Without thinking about it I said, "you are going to have to know that they will." I have thought a lot about that statement I made because that was te first time I had tried to communicate this idea that I my self had never thought about on a conscious level.   weird.


Leo a spus ca :"cainele a facut ceea ce gandea stapanul"
Inteleg asta, si am trait si eu asa ceva, dar numai daca nu ma gandesc prea mult.Daca ma gandesc prea mult, nu-mi mai pare logic.
Cand m-am casatorit, necasta mea avea 2 caini mari. Erau destul de draguti dar nu aveau mai deloc dresaj. Casa in care trebuia sa ne mutam, avea o intrare chiar in fata pentru masina. Canisa mea era in spate, si trebuia sa tinem cei 2 caini ai ei in fata casei cat timp noi eram plecati. Asta insemna ca trebuia sa cobori, sa deschizi poarta, sa intri cu masina, sa cobori si sa inchizi poarta. Ea zicea: cum oare o sa-i fac sa stea cat timp bag eu masina inauntru? >Strada din fata avea trafic destul de mare. Fara sa gandesc ce spun i-am replicat ca :va trebui sa ai incredere ca ei vor sti sa stea cuminti. M-am gandit mult la ceea ce i-am spus, pentru ca era prima data cand am incercat sa explic ideea asta, pe care eu niciodata nu am constientizat-o deplin.    Ciudat.

[Leo Pui]

Leo said, "A dog followed what his owner thought."

I understand this, I have experienced it, But I only if I do not think about it to hard. If I think about it to hard, it does not seem logical.
When my wife and I first got married, she had two big dogs. They were nice dogs but had had very little in the way of training. The house we were going to live in had a drive through gate at the front of the house. My kennels were in the back yard so we were going to keep her two dogs in the front when we were gone all day. This meant you would have to drive up, get out and open the gate, drive in, get out and shut the gate. She said,"how am I ever going to get them to stay while I pull the car in." The road in front had some traffic on it. Without thinking about it I said, "you are going to have to know that they will." I have thought a lot about that statement I made because that was te first time I had tried to communicate this idea that I my self had never thought about on a conscious level.   weird.

Interesting Bob ... so the two dogs stay?  

The reason I said: "A dog followed what his owner thought" ... if the owner think that he can do it then the dog will definitely cannot do it!  And, in my humble opinion ...  there are two reasons explain like this:
1)  The dog is so smart that they take the easy way out since the owner think that he cannot do it!
2)  We human-being always under estimated what a dog can do and many of the times, we tend to use us "human-being" as a guide-line when working/training the dog!

Damn, I hope I manged to put my points across ... the more I read it, the more myself get confused!  


Interesant Bob..deci cainii au stat linistiti?    

Am spus ca ei au facut ceea ce stapanul lor gandea...daca stapanul crede ca NU poate reusi, atunci cainele in mod sigur nu va reusi! Si in opinia mea sunt 2 motive pentru asta:
1 Cainele-i destept incat alege calea mai usoara, din moment ce stapanul nu are incredere!
2 Stapanul totdeauna subestimeaza posibilitatile cainelui, si se foloseste pe sine ca si reper cand antreneaza caini

Sper ca am reusit sa exprim exact ceea ce vreau sa zic, cu cat citesc mai mult cu atat devin mai confuz! 

[bobdog]

I understand, Leo. 

[Leo Pui]

I understand, Leo.   

Thank You Bob, just want to make sure since English is not my main language 

[Leo Pui]

dupa cum a spus si Leo principalul lucru in dresaj este atasamentul cainelui de stapan sau de curtea in care locueste ma refer la dresajul de paza Este gresit sa credem ca daca tinem un caine izolat o sa devina mai agresiv plimbarile intaresc atasamentul si da incredere cainelui

as Leo said also, the main thing is the dogs attachment to the owner, or the backyard he is living in, for the protection.Is wrong to think that if we keep the dog isolated it will become aggressive..The walks strenghten the attachment and gives the dog trust

Yes, that's very true!