Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real

[Man Stopper]

Very good work there by these young one's, especially the 3 rd K9 who i think is a bitch..
She's really nasty and 'FULL ON'..!!!
 The last big male shows avoidance and hesitates, just wondering is he the one with only 2 training sessions..
Thanks Santos for the video, as it shows and helps us to get a better understanding of individual character and working performance.
Am tempted to give Casso one of these sessions, as he is 10 months now.. These dogs are of same age and we have also seen Remus and Viner being worked at similar age..

[bobdog]

Man stopper
I don't see anything wrong necessarily in toys and grip work with the owner/handler. But I don't bring a dog up doing these things with anyone but the handler. I also want to make sure to keep this in balance with man work. What I mean by this is If the dog has been turned on to a "bad guy" and you pull a toy out of your pocket, the desire for the bad guy should be higher. if the dog in this situation would just as soon play with the toy, he/she is "out of balance." Dogs I raise as dual purpose police dogs have to like a toy, it part of what drives their search work. But if the decoy were to throw a toy at this same dog, he should have no interest in it.

I don't think the "out" is a sport thing. I also don't think it is impossible in a real encounter. Much more difficult in some cases for the dog. But not impossible. I know where Roger is coming from when he says he thinks a dog who will out is not as reliable on the grip. A lot of hogdog/bulldog people share this opinion. and training the reliable out without a dog anticipating it and with it having no effect on his grip is an art.

[bobdog]

Santos,
Very impressive young dogs!

Santos, foarte impresionanti cainii astia tineri

[bobdog]

Kangdanlin.
You said, "I like to make the dog hate the helper" and then I teach him to bite. I take this approach with mature dogs starting in bite work. but when starting young dogs with strong prey, I do it the other way around. Do you wait then until a dog is almost grown?

 

[bobdog]

   Quote
i am really glad that Bob's strong point is to recuperate sport dogs for the reality, this means he can give some very competent advice also regarding the "helper workout" or the "helper behaviour" too..what are the biggest mistakes he usualy has to correct...i think this is maybe the biggest subject, as the helper can make or brake your dog!

Some of the things I have learned to fix as well as prevent are, equipment fixation/not viewing the decoy as his focus, aggression to friendly fire, wanting to "look"(with his head up) in the field, when we need him to track, trying to search(building search) with his eyes and tracking ground disturbances instead of man-scent.

The key to fixing equipment fixation is to fix it first working in prey. You see a lot of people trying to fix it first in defense. After slipping the sleeve, they will place it between the dog and the decoy. The decoy puts a lot of defensive pressure on the dog. He will in most cases shift his focus from the sleeve to the decoy in defense. People think this is good. They say, "the dog is willing to leave the sleeve for the man." Yes, but it is situational and it is in defense of "his sleeve". Notice in many cases the moment the decoy turns and starts to leave, the dogs focus goes back to the sleeve. Like he drove the man away from his true desire and focus "the sleeve". Increasing further his desire for "the sleeve".
The way I like to fix it takes some time. I start by getting the dog to understand the decoy dying. not slipping the equipment any more but by gradually and with patients lifting the dog off the dead decoy. I use this opportunity to praise the dog on the bite, letting him counter and shake while the decoy is dying with much praise. Lifting and letting him back down to counter and shake. Each time I hold up longer(also a good work out for the handler,lol) until finally the dog has to let go. In the next step I will go to some run away bites with a soft sleeve or a suite jacket and a hidden sleeve. I often do this at the end of a track, (I try to work on several things at the same time. There is so much to work on.) When the dog catches the man, bite on the sleeve or suit, I slip it and keep running, putting as much prey movement as I can. The handler gives the send command and encourages the dog to pursue the fleeing/flailing man. If needed the decoy can run in kind of a circle should the dog not seem to want to chase at first, It is funny to see sometimes the dog chasing the decoy with the sleeve in his mouth. Sometimes not dropping it until the last second. I have the handler slowing him a bit with the long line. Eventually the light goes off and the dog drops the dead sleeve to bite the live decoy.
This is followed by a rewarding fight followed by a dying decoy and much praise from the handler. I let him hold this bite for a long time.
After some repetitions most dogs will start dropping it pretty quickly. I feel like this is the best approach because it is the dogs prey drive that makes him want the sleeve in the first place. Prey drive is one of the strongest drives in most dogs. Especially Mals. lol

[bobdog]

Kangdanlin

regarding to bite development, i've seen in a site, a police helper describing his way of doing things...he started the dog in prey (chasing and the first bite of the helper), and then he would work the dog only in defense...muzzle...when the dog worked good in defense he would start the fighting drive development,by working the dog in prey again(atac the running decoy from behind) ..i would like to know what you think about this

This, in my opinion, is basically correct, with one exception. And may be it is wording thing. But I would have a hard time saying I ever truly work a dog only in defense. Even when I am working a dog in defense, some prey stimulation is thrown in there if only for moments at a time.
By the same token, when ai am working a dog in prey there are often "moments" that the stimulation I am giving is defense.

[kangdanlin]

Kangdanlin.
You said, "I like to make the dog hate the helper" and then I teach him to bite. I take this approach with mature dogs starting in bite work. but when starting young dogs with strong prey, I do it the other way around. Do you wait then until a dog is almost grown?

Kangdanlin ai spus"incerc sa-l fac sa urasca "ajutorul" si apoi il invat sa muste.Inteleg ca metoda asta o faci cu caini maturi, dar cand incep cu un caine tanar cu instinct puternic de prada, eu fac exact invers.astepti pana ce cainele este aproape matur?

i just translated what Santos said in that post
and i agree, with personal protection dogs, this is the way to do it...so far with my dog(greif von bismakc) i avoited this type of work..i did it only 2 or 3 times, about a month difference in time for each session...and only becouse people asked me to see how the dog reacts, if he still got the nerve
so far i tried to get him used to all types of conditions, also i played alot with him, made him chase the ball, tought him to swim, to travel by car and simple things like this...if you enter his topic you can see everything i did with him so far
next weekend  i will take him to Santos to start training for personal protection

doar am tradus ceea ce a spus Santos in postul respectiv
si sunt de acord, cu un caine de paza si protectie, asa ar trebui procedat...pana acum cu turbolino am evitat tipul asta de munca...am facut doar de vreo 2, 3 ori, cam la diferenta de o luna ..si asta numai pentru ca lumea vroia sa vada cum reactioneaza, daca mai are nerv
pana acum am incercat sa-l obisnuiesc cu tot felul de conditii, m-am jucat cu el foarte mult, l-am provocat sa vaneze mingiuta, a invatat sa inoate, l-am invatat cu masina si alte lucruri simple ...daca intri pe topic la el o sa poti vedea cam tot ce am facut cu el pana acum
weekendul viitor il voi duce la Santos sa inceapa dresajul de paza si protectie

[kangdanlin]

Danni (zimbris) right?
You hit on something I find to be very true. Police trainers in the USA use training methods that are very sport like in nature. I did some research and talked with a lot of them to try to figure out the history and to understand why. What I figured out was like you said. They do a very one dimensional type of training just like they were taught. They were taught by older police K9 trainers who were taught by other PK9 trainers. So it must be the best they think, with out ever having a broad enough understanding of canine behavior and learning to think further.
I believe it traces back to when the use of dogs exploded in the America there was a lack of police who knew anything about advanced dog training. So where did they go? To the also newly developing(in this country) schutzhund clubs.

Dani, ai atins un lucru pe care eu il consider foarte adevarat.Politistii in SUA folosesc metode foarte similare cu cele de sport.Am cautat putin si am vorbit cu destul de multi dintre ei ca sa inteleg istoria si motivul acestui lucru.Ce am aflat este exact cum spui tu.ei fac un singur tip de dresaj , exact asa cum au fost invatati.Au fost invatati de catre politisti mai vechi care la randul lor au invatat de la altii dinaintea lor.Si probabil asta cred ei ca este cel mai bine, fara sa fie nevoiti vreodata sa inteleaga comportamentul canin sau sa invete si sa gandeasca mai departe.
Cred ca merge mai departe pana la punctul in care folosirea cainilor a eplodat in america, cand era o lipsa de politisti care sa stie ceva despre dresajul avansat.Si unde s-au adresat mai departe? ..la noile cluburi de Sch ce se dezvoltau in tara.

[Man Stopper]

bobdog,

I like to use toy(tug) as a rerward for search/find items, this is very enjoyable for Casso where its fun and games.
But as for the 'bad guy' work i would not want any distraction by using a toy as 'reward'. He should differentiate between fun/games and Eg Protection work.
The distraction could be a 'stick' which a decoy brings out, and K9 responds by aiming for the weapon.
With chasing moving objects i like the dog to be focused on me, and even if i throw 100 objects the dog is within close range to grip.
In future this main object would be "helper" in suit, where the 'out' command would be used, only would be just prior to the dog losing drive..
So there can be a pause/break (10 - 15 sec) before releasing onto moving object (helper) once again to hold with minimal growling.GAME OVER
Its so easy with genetics to reach our goals, especially for protection work, but you guys are right there is a few differant paths to choose to help us get there..

[kangdanlin]

Hell bobdog and welcome to the Forum.
After reading your replys on this topic i see that you have experience and a passion for working dogs.
Respect your knowledge and views in regards to training for differant purposes other than Sports/competition.
Can relate to where your coming from, when we talk about old school methods of training, and training of today where most just copy each other, and repeat the same old ways..
With prey on arm and puppy mouthing, i first started doing this in the early 80's as a young kid, wearing 2-3 clothing tops.
Wrestling my young dog 'Rommel' who loved responding to my padded arm, he grew to be a very good family guard dog..
These days with my last 2 pups, i did very minimal prey (broom/rag chasing) work, rather provide them there own appropriate training object they can play chase in there own time. Genetically if a dog loves to chase, i dont see the point in over doing it in a one on one prey/play  training to often.. Same in regards to working a dog who naturally is defensive/suspicious of people at a young age..
'Less is more' i say when it comes to training this type of dog, his confidence 'Defense drive' will build gradually with less training, developing Fight drive
On the other hand if we train on every Sunday we possibly might push the young dog say 14 months old and without knowing, we a creating a defensive dog based on fear.. Especially with a trainer who does not know the "DO'S" and "DONT'S" of training..
Am in a hurry to go out, but look forward for more talks on the 'DO'S and 'DONT'S' of REAL LIFE TRAINING..

salut bobdog si bun venit pe forum,
dupa ce am citit ceea ce ai scris , imi dau seama ca ai ceva experienta si pasiune pentru caini
iti respect cunostintele si parerile referitor la dresajul pentru alte scopuri decat cel de sport/competitie
Stiu ce vrei sa spui cand vorbesti de metode vechi de dresaj, si dresajul de astazi, cand toata lumea copiaza ceea ce fac ceilalti, si repeta aceleasi greseli.
tot asa am inceput si eu cand eram pusti , prin anii 80, cu haine pe antebrat.Luptandu-ma cu tanarul meu caine Rommel, caruia ii placea sa sara pe bratul meu acoperit,si care pana la urma a ajuns sa fie un foarte bun caine de paza pentru familie.
Zilele astea cu ultimii 2 pui, am facut foarte putina prada(cu matura/carpa), si i-am lasat pe ei sa se joace cu propria lor jucarie cum au chef.
Daca genetic un caine arata interes pentru vanatoare nu vad un motiv sa fac lucrul asta excesiv prin jocuri unu la unu.Acelasi lucru si cu cainii care prezinta suspiciune/aparare inca de tineri.Mai putin inseamna de fapt mai mult in ceea ce priveste tipul asta de caine,increderea lui, instinctul de aparare se vor maturiza treptat cu mai putin antrenament, si se vor transforma in instinct de lupta.
pe partea cealalta , daca antrenam cainele numai o data pe saptamana,putem impinge cainele sa zicem de 14 luni sa devina un caine defenziv datorita fricii...mai ales daca avem si un dresor care nu stie ce sa faca si ce sa nu faca foarte bine.
acum trebuie sa plec, abia astept sa continuam discutiile despre ce trebuie facut si ce nu trebuie facut in ce priveste dresajul pentru realitate

[kangdanlin]

Very good work there by these young one's, especially the 3 rd K9 who i think is a bitch..
She's really nasty and 'FULL ON'..!!!
 The last big male shows avoidance and hesitates, just wondering is he the one with only 2 training sessions..
Thanks Santos for the video, as it shows and helps us to get a better understanding of individual character and working performance.
Am tempted to give Casso one of these sessions, as he is 10 months now.. These dogs are of same age and we have also seen Remus and Viner being worked at similar age..

foarte bine lucreaza micutii, in special al 3-lea care cred ca e o catea.
E o catea foarte rea si "hotarata"
ultimul mascul mare arata ceva evitare si ezitari, ma intreb daca o fi cainele de care ziceti ca are numai 2 sesiuni de antrenament..
Multumesc Santos pentru clip, astfel putem vedea si intelege mai bine caracteristicile individuale si performantele de lucru ale fiecaruia.
Sunt tentat sa incep si cu Casso cateva sesiuni de genul asta, acum ca se apropie de 10 luni.Cainii astia au varste apropiate si ii avem de asemeni pe Remus si Viner care lucreaza de la varste similare...

[zimbris]

va salut, am ceva probleme tehnice si nu pot folosi calculatorul. sper sa rezolv problema astzai.

hey guys, I'm not able to use my computer as I got some technical problems at home, will get this sorted soon.

[zimbris]

Very good work there by these young one's, especially the 3 rd K9 who i think is a bitch..
She's really nasty and 'FULL ON'..!!!

I could be wrong but I think that is Greta...

Posibil sa ma insel, dar cred ca e vorba de Greta..

[zimbris]

kangdanlin - multumesc din nou pt traduceri - apreciem mult asta!

kandanlin thanks ever so much for all your help!

[RogerW]

My power keeps going in and out, computer shutting off.  We aren't used to COLD!!!!