Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real

[RogerW]

I agree, it was this topic and mindset we all have that brought me to Zimbris forum!  I love it.  I look at this one more than I do my own lately.

[zimbris]

well honestly this is one special topic. there are those who just have their dog follow a routine training style, indicated by a friend or whatever and then there are those who know exactly why they wanted a working dog and what they want to do with such a dog. Hence the questions and answers style of the topic. real people with real perspective of life that are in search for real dogs   - I hope this will turn out to be the unwritten motto of this forum!

[bobdog]

Good morning Romania! Well my morning anyway. I noticed the time on my posts match my computer, not what time it is here. My computer thinks it is in Texas.  Rather than Afghanistan lol
Any way I would like to go back to the beginning of this post and give my opinions on all the questions raised, because this topic, developing real dogs as apposed to sport dogs is one that is very dear to me. I have spent a lot of my time researching this topic as well as developing and applying my own philosophies to this work. I hope some will find interest and may be can find information that will help them in their evolving programs. I hope to find the same things here. My ideas are ever evolving as well. I feel there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here for me.
            Bob

[bobdog]

Man Stopper.
All the way back on page 1 you asked about developing dogs using techniques that prevent it from falling into the equipment oriented sport type of dog, but rather a dog that is real. The ways to develop a dog with the right mind set are probably as limitless as ones imagination. The age of the dog to be started, what that particular dog is like, if he has had and how much other (sport like) training are all factors dictating how you should proceed. But the common factor or "spirit of the work" is this:
We want the dog focused on the man and not the equipment. I think what keeps a lot of people from seeing it the way I see it, is thinking that prey=equipment and defense=man. I want the dog to see the man as the focus regardless of what he is doing. For in the end, I want him to bite that man when I ask him to, no matter if he is fighting us, running from us, or standing perfectly still. Yet in most training regimens I see, for months and months of training, the decoy slips the sleeve and stands still wile the dog is encouraged to hold the sleeve and pay little to no attention to the passive man. Then a year later they wonder why they have a hard time getting the dog to hit a man standing perfectly still. lol That is what the dog has been taught. They want to start their puppies young and feel like they can not start on the man because he is to big and intimidating. Yet we have all sat on the floor and ran our hand quickly past a litter of puppies. if you keep it moving, before you know it they are all latched onto our shirt sleeve. This of course is in prey, or at least what I call play/prey. So why months later do we start them on puppy tugs? You can move your arm much like you do a puppy tug. Because for decades trainers have been taught prey=equipment and defense=man and puppies are not mature enough for man work there for they must be started in prey and prey=equipment.

[bobdog]

.... Or as Roger eluded to in his next post, you can wait to start working with a dog until he is older. I have done this often and in fact when I first started in bite work this is how I started most dogs. This is very interesting work and I find few people really understand it any more. In all bite work fe strive for an attitude in the dog that many people label "fight-drive" Like prey lacks intensity and pure defense lacks the speed of action, like the dog is waiting somewhat to "defend." Fight-drive has been said to carry the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. I look at it like I said before as being on a continuum. Prey-----fight drive-----defense. With most young dogs you have little choice but to start in prey and as he matures, push him toward defense bringing him up to fight drive. Starting a grown or nearly grown dog, and keeping with the idea that we want him focused on the man, often times I find it necessary to start him in defense. Like they have a hard time viewing man as prey. We are not "natural" prey for the dog. But I find if I can raise suspicion and mild defensive feelings in the dog and then immediately stimulate him with prey like movements, I can get him there. Not understanding how to do this and dogs not naturally viewing man as prey is why I think grown dogs are often also started on equipment.   Bob

[bobdog]

Danni (zimbris) right?
You hit on something I find to be very true. Police trainers in the USA use training methods that are very sport like in nature. I did some research and talked with a lot of them to try to figure out the history and to understand why. What I figured out was like you said. They do a very one dimensional type of training just like they were taught. They were taught by older police K9 trainers who were taught by other PK9 trainers. So it must be the best they think, with out ever having a broad enough understanding of canine behavior and learning to think further.
I believe it traces back to when the use of dogs exploded in the America there was a lack of police who knew anything about advanced dog training. So where did they go? To the also newly developing(in this country) schutzhund clubs.

[zimbris]

good to see you back Bob, I hope you had a good rest   
Will get back online and some more translating!
Am going out now to get some training sessions on video.

[Man Stopper]

Hell bobdog and welcome to the Forum.
After reading your replys on this topic i see that you have experience and a passion for working dogs.
Respect your knowledge and views in regards to training for differant purposes other than Sports/competition.
Can relate to where your coming from, when we talk about old school methods of training, and training of today where most just copy each other, and repeat the same old ways..
With prey on arm and puppy mouthing, i first started doing this in the early 80's as a young kid, wearing 2-3 clothing tops.
Wrestling my young dog 'Rommel' who loved responding to my padded arm, he grew to be a very good family guard dog..
These days with my last 2 pups, i did very minimal prey (broom/rag chasing) work, rather provide them there own appropriate training object they can play chase in there own time. Genetically if a dog loves to chase, i dont see the point in over doing it in a one on one prey/play  training to often.. Same in regards to working a dog who naturally is defensive/suspicious of people at a young age..
'Less is more' i say when it comes to training this type of dog, his confidence 'Defense drive' will build gradually with less training, developing Fight drive
On the other hand if we train on every Sunday we possibly might push the young dog say 14 months old and without knowing, we a creating a defensive dog based on fear.. Especially with a trainer who does not know the "DO'S" and "DONT'S" of training..
Am in a hurry to go out, but look forward for more talks on the 'DO'S and 'DONT'S' of REAL LIFE TRAINING..
c

[kangdanlin]

Man Stopper.
All the way back on page 1 you asked about developing dogs using techniques that prevent it from falling into the equipment oriented sport type of dog, but rather a dog that is real. The ways to develop a dog with the right mind set are probably as limitless as ones imagination. The age of the dog to be started, what that particular dog is like, if he has had and how much other (sport like) training are all factors dictating how you should proceed. But the common factor or "spirit of the work" is this:
We want the dog focused on the man and not the equipment. I think what keeps a lot of people from seeing it the way I see it, is thinking that prey=equipment and defense=man. I want the dog to see the man as the focus regardless of what he is doing. For in the end, I want him to bite that man when I ask him to, no matter if he is fighting us, running from us, or standing perfectly still. Yet in most training regimens I see, for months and months of training, the decoy slips the sleeve and stands still wile the dog is encouraged to hold the sleeve and pay little to no attention to the passive man. Then a year later they wonder why they have a hard time getting the dog to hit a man standing perfectly still. lol That is what the dog has been taught. They want to start their puppies young and feel like they can not start on the man because he is to big and intimidating. Yet we have all sat on the floor and ran our hand quickly past a litter of puppies. if you keep it moving, before you know it they are all latched onto our shirt sleeve. This of course is in prey, or at least what I call play/prey. So why months later do we start them on puppy tugs? You can move your arm much like you do a puppy tug. Because for decades trainers have been taught prey=equipment and defense=man and puppies are not mature enough for man work there for they must be started in prey and prey=equipment.

Man Stopper, la inceputul topicului ai intrebat despre tehnici menite a evita fixarea cainelui pe echipament, si formarea lui pentru realitate.Modurile de a forma un caine la modul corect sunt la fel de limitate ca si mintea fiecaruia.Varsta cainelui, ce fel de caine este,daca a mai facut sau cat de multe sedinte de sport a facut inainte,sunt factorii care dicteaza cum ar trebui sa procedezi.Dar factorul comun, sau "Spiritul Muncii " este:
Vrem cainele fixat pe om si nu pe echipament.Cred ca ceea ce-i face pe oameni sa vada lucrurile diferit de felul cum le vad eu este ideea ca Prada=Echipament si Aparare=Om.Vreau sa am un caine care sa-l vada pe om ca obiectiv indiferent de ceea ce face.Pentru ca in final vreau sa-l muste pe acel om,daca-i spun eu, indiferent de ceea ce face, fie ca luptam cu el, fie ca fuge de noi, sau sta pur si simplu neclintit.Totusi vad in majoritatea tipurilor de dresaj ca "ajutorul" ofera mansonul luni la rand, si in timp ce el sta linistit , cainele este incurajat sa tina maneca si sa fie prea putin atent la omul care nu misca.si dupa un an se mira de ce au probleme cu un caine care nu este capabil sa muste un om ce sta perfect nemiscat.tocmai asta au invatat cainele.vor sa inceapa lucrul cu un caine foarte tanar, dar nu pot incepe direct pe om , deoarece este prea mare si intimidant.cu toate astea cu no toti am stat pe podea bagand mana intr-un cuib de puiuti.si daca o miscam putin ne trezim ca au si facut priza pe mana.Asta desigur este in prada, sau ceea ce numesc eu prada/joaca.Si atunci de ce cateva luni mai tarziu incepem lucrul cu ei pe batoane?poti sa misti mana cam la fel cum poti misca batonul pentru pui.fiindca decenii la rand dresorii au fost invatati ca echipament=prada, iar aparare=om iar puiutii nu sunt destul de maturi pentru munca pe om si de aceea ii initiem pe echipamnt , in prada

[Santos]

acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte.
in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora

[youtube]l0vGznrR7wc[/youtube]

[kangdanlin]

acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte.
in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora

in this clip 2 dogs(male-female) are 11 months old with 5 sessions of agression, 2 females 8 months old with 7 sessions, and another male 11 months old with 2 sessions

[kangdanlin]

.... Or as Roger eluded to in his next post, you can wait to start working with a dog until he is older. I have done this often and in fact when I first started in bite work this is how I started most dogs. This is very interesting work and I find few people really understand it any more. In all bite work fe strive for an attitude in the dog that many people label "fight-drive" Like prey lacks intensity and pure defense lacks the speed of action, like the dog is waiting somewhat to "defend." Fight-drive has been said to carry the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. I look at it like I said before as being on a continuum. Prey-----fight drive-----defense. With most young dogs you have little choice but to start in prey and as he matures, push him toward defense bringing him up to fight drive. Starting a grown or nearly grown dog, and keeping with the idea that we want him focused on the man, often times I find it necessary to start him in defense. Like they have a hard time viewing man as prey. We are not "natural" prey for the dog. But I find if I can raise suspicion and mild defensive feelings in the dog and then immediately stimulate him with prey like movements, I can get him there. Not understanding how to do this and dogs not naturally viewing man as prey is why I think grown dogs are often also started on equipment.   Bob

sau cun Roger a uitat sa spuna, poti astepta sa lucrezi cu cainele pana se maturizeaza.Am facut lucrul asta deseori, de fapt cand am inceput prima data asa faceam cu majoritatea cainilor.Asta este o munca foarte interesanta si cred ca sunt destul de putini oameni care inteleg cu adevarat lucrul asta.In tot ce inseamna agresivitate speram sa avem o atitudine in caine pe care multe persoane o catalogheaza drept "instinct de lupta".Ca si cum prazii ii lipseste intensitatea iar "apararii" ii lipseste viteza de actiune, ca si cum cainele respectiv asteapta sa apere ceva.Fight drive( instinctul de lupta) se spune ca are "avansarea" din prada si intensitatea "apararii".eu vad lucrul acesta dupa cum am mai spus un continuu prada---lupta---aparare.Cu puii nu prea ai de ales decat sa incepi in prada si pe timp ce se maturizeaza , sa-l impingi in "aparare" care conduce spre "instinctul de lupta".Incepand cu un caine adult sau aproape adult, si pastrand ideea de a-l fixa pe om, de multe ori ma vad in situatia de a incepe in "aparare".Ca si cum ar avea dificultati in a vedea omul ca si pe o prada.noi nu suntem o prada naturala pentru caine.Dar consider ca daca reusesc sa trezesc suspiciunea si cat de cat sentimente de aparare/precautie in caine apoi il lucrez prin miscari caracteristice lucrului "in prada", atunci pot ajunge la scopul meu.Cainii sunt adesea initiati pe echipament datorita neinelegerii modului cum sa facem lucrul acesta si datorita faptului ca omul nu este vazut de caine ca pe o prada naturala.

[RogerW]

Just got back in town, I will write later, thanks so much for posting, Santos...be right back!

acesta este un antrenament in care 2 caini(femela si mascul) de 11 luni cu 5 sedinte de agresivitate, 2 femele de 8 luni cu 7 sedinte de agresivitate si un alt mascul de 11 luni cu 2 sedinte.
in viitor voi mai posta si alte clipuri cu evolutia acestora

[youtube]l0vGznrR7wc[/youtube]

[RogerW]

Looks cool, Santos, I support that training!   Do you happen to have any video of Greif being agitated?  Or working in muzzle.... ??

[kangdanlin]

Looks cool, Santos, I support that training!   Do you happen to have any video of Greif being agitated?  Or working in muzzle.... ??

arata super Santos, sunt de acord cu tipul asta de antrenament!Ai cumva vreun clip cu sedintele de agitare ale lui Greif? Sau cu el la lucru cu botnita...?