Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home4/rcan5730/public_html/forum/Sources/Load.php(183) : runtime-created function on line 3
Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
Hello Guest

Author Topic: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real  (Read 45450 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Santos

  • SchH3
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2011, 07:11:12 AM »
eu nu caut la cainii de real sa le formez muscatura Nu ma intereseaza priza ci nervul cu care musca Formarea cainelui de real invatand cainele sa muste din prada nu prea da roade in situatii reale ,pentru spectacol merge

Offline kangdanlin

  • SchH3
  • Posts: 2132
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2011, 08:02:16 AM »
eu nu caut la cainii de real sa le formez muscatura Nu ma intereseaza priza ci nervul cu care musca Formarea cainelui de real invatand cainele sa muste din prada nu prea da roade in situatii reale ,pentru spectacol merge
i dont try to build the bite.I am not interested in the lock, what i care is the nerve during the bite.Training a reality dog by biting in prey doesnt really work in the streets, only for show works
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

  • SchH3
  • Posts: 2132
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2011, 08:22:53 AM »
pana la urma care o fi scopul muscaturii calme, gen Sch?...de ce se insista atat de mult pe genul asta de muscatura?

so what is the point of the calm grip, Sch type?...why do people insist so much on this type of bite?
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline Santos

  • SchH3
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2011, 09:09:24 AM »
muscatura calma arata ca este un caine  ( echilibrat) iar ceilalti sunt dezechilibrati
la atac prefer cainele care isi arata dintii la atentator care latra la atentator din ura nu ca sa primeasca mansonul
am filmat cum am promis cum incep eu cainii de real

a calm lock bite shows that the dog is (balanced) and the others are not
when attacking, i prefer the dog who shows its fangs and barks out of hatred towards the agitator, not just to receive the sleeve
as I promised, i filmed my way of teaching the dog the first steps in real protection 

Offline bobdog

  • BH
  • Posts: 58
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2011, 09:22:42 AM »
Hello fellow dogmen. My name is Bob Manning and first of all I want to thank you for allowing me to join in all this discussion.

I have been watching it evolve for a couple of days, but was unable to comment. Now there is so much to comment on, I don't know where to start! lol! So I will start with my opinion on the most resent question and work my way back.

Kangdanlin, asked "what is the point of teaching the calm grip" as they do in Sch. To the degree that the sport folks teach it, I don't agree, but I do in some cases and for some reasons calm a dog on the grip. If the decoy is fighting the dog, I want the dog to bite hard and fight! not "fall asleep on the grip," but there must be a balance. If a young dog is getting hectic or stressed, I will try to calm him. Balance. When I have the decoy begin to die, and I do this instead of slipping the equipment in most cases, I want the dog to begin to calm down. Where if, say a young dog was may be felling a little stress, here it is lessened by both the decoy beginning to weaken and die as well as me calming him with long slow strokes and soothing praise. I feel that the decoy dying and the dog calming but holding his grip is like a predator waiting for his prey to die.  I am getting him to understand, hang in there, and you will defeat your adversary/prey and I have been here with you all along. I say adversary/prey, because during the fight the dog probably viewed the man as an adversary. But in the end, as he is showing signs of weakening, it is empowering and comforting to the dog to now view him as dying prey. This may seem to be over-romanticizing on my part, but in my experiences, I have seen it have this effect on the dog.

va salut prieteni ai cainilor. mai intai de toate vreau sa va multumesc pt primirea in randurile voastre.
am urmarit cursul topicului in ultimele 2 zile, dar nu am putut posta. Acum as vrea sa spun asa multe, dar nu stiu de unde sa incep  :grin:  asa ca voi incepe prin a comenta la adresa celei mai recente intrebari si apoi le iau la rand pe celelalte.
Kangdanlin intreba "care e rostul invatarii prizei calme" asa cum se face in Schh. Nu sunt nici eu de acord cu nivelul la care se lucreaza in sensul asta, pe terenul sportiv, dar agreez asa ceva in anumite cazuri iar din anumite motive voi calma cainele pe priza. Daca infractorul se lupta cu cainele, vreau ca animalul sa muste puternic si sa lupte! Nu sa il "ia somnul pe priza", dar trebuie sa existe un echilibru. daca un caine tanar devine obosit sau stresat, incerc sa-l calmez. Echilibru. Cand infractorul incepe sa cedeze si, prefer asta in loc ca infractorul sa dea drumul echipamentului, vreau ca patrupedul sa inceapa sa se calmeze. pe cand, sa spunem ca un caine tanar incepe sa se simta putin stresat, aici stresul este redus prin faptul ca infractorul incepe sa cedeze plus faptul ca eu il calmez prin voce, smucituri lungi dar usoare din lesa si atingerea mainii. pot asocia acest lucru cu animalul de prada care asteapta sa moara prada prinsa. Il fac sa inteleaga ce se intampla, sa reziste si isi va infrange adversarul / prada, iar eu am fost aici cu tine pe tot parcursul. Spun adversar / prada, pt ca in timpul luptei, cainele probabil a vazut omul ca fiind adversarul. Dar pe masura ce omul/adversarul da semne de slabiciune, este incurajator pt caine sa il vada acum ca fiind prada care e pe moarte. posibil sa sune putin dramatizat, dar am experimentat aceasta metoda cu cainele.

zimbris

  • Guest
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2011, 09:24:08 AM »
la atac prefer cainele care isi arata dintii la atentator care latra la atentator din ura nu ca sa primeasca mansonul
am filmat cum am promis cum incep eu cainii de real
Nu cred ca putem trage linie si sa spunem 'asa trebuie sa arate un caine care musca din ura fatza de atentator", parerea mea..
Ben al meu, nu isi arata dintii, nici nu latra, ci tragea tare din zgarda, cu privirea tinta in ochii atentatorului iar priza o data facuta pe manson, incerca sa si-o afunde, daca ma pot exprima asa, desi priza era completa. nu dadea deloc din coada. In momentul in care atentatorul lasa mansonul jos, Ben automat lasa si el si se repedea imediat in ce era mai aproape de el (piciorul atentatorului de cele mai multe ori). Am sa incerc sa dau de baietii din "garda veche", in spetza cei care l-au avut pe Ben pe manson, ei ar putea spune mai multe detalii.
Vorbeam si cu Dux despre lucrurile astea si personal asta cred, anume ca daca un caine e fixat pe infractor sa muste din instinct de lupta, nu inseamna neaparat ca isi va arata coltii (repet, este parerea mea)

I don't think we should draw a line and say that a dog should look like this or like that and that tells me he is a real dog, just IMO..
My Ben did not show his fangs, did not bark, he was just pooling hard trying to get loose so he could finally bite, and looking the agitator straight in the eyes. once he locked the bite, he was trying to go deeper (although it was a full grip already), no tail wagging and if the agitator released the equipment, he immediately out too and went for whatever he "found" first (most times would be the agitator's leg). i will try and get in touch with my "old school" guys, who have worked . felt Ben on the bite. Not long ago I was chatting to Dux about this and i still believe a dog that will bite for real will /should display one and the same behavior pattern

zimbris

  • Guest
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2011, 09:26:16 AM »
@bobdog

Welcome to the forum  :welcome:! We are glad to have you here with us and rest assured your comments will be valued.
So, "show must go on"!.. carry on guys!  ;)

Bun venit in forum! Ne bucuram sa te avem aici cu noi si fii sigur ca ceea ce ai de spus va fi apreciat.
Deci, dati-i bataie in continuare!

Offline bobdog

  • BH
  • Posts: 58
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2011, 09:37:49 AM »
Zimbris, thank you for the warm welcome. I feel like I am behind in a lot of good discussion. I also feel Roger has played me up too much! As a friend of mine once said, " The only thing I am an expert in is my own opinion." lol But I love sharing my opinion as well as hearing the opinion's of others. So again, thank you for your hospitality.
                                                                         Bob

Multumesc pt buna primire. Simt ca am de recuperat dupa multe discutii f bune. mai simt ca roger m-a jucat prea mult! Cum spunea un prieten de-al meu, "singurul lucru de care sunt sigur este opinia mea".  :grin: dar imi place sa imi spun parerea si sa o citesc pe cea a altora. Deci dinj nou, multumesc pt primirea calduroasa.

zimbris

  • Guest
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2011, 09:47:22 AM »
Zimbris, thank you for the warm welcome. I feel like I am behind in a lot of good discussion. I also feel Roger has played me up too much! As a friend of mine once said, " The only thing I am an expert in is my own opinion." lol But I love sharing my opinion as well as hearing the opinion's of others. So again, thank you for your hospitality.
                                                                         Bob
Like I said, we're glad to have you here, I am yet even more glad we seem to be (more or less) on the same boat   :beer:

Cum spuneam, ne bucuram sa te avem aici, ma bucur cu atat mai mult sa stiu ca ne aflam (mai mult sau mai putin) in aceeasi barca

Offline bobdog

  • BH
  • Posts: 58
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2011, 09:49:54 AM »
 :beer: To working dogs!

zimbris

  • Guest
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2011, 09:50:28 AM »

Offline bobdog

  • BH
  • Posts: 58
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2011, 10:08:49 AM »
Zimbris, I just read your post just before or after, I forgot, and I agree. We cant draw that line. ...And again, these are my opinions based on my experiences. I want to remain humble here. I feel I am in the company of many good dogmen. I think there are many factors leading to the picture we see of a "real dog" Some are genetic, while some are products of the dogs training. How he was brought to where he is.

Zimbris, am citit postarea ta si sunt de acord. Nu putem generaliza.. Si din nou, acestea sunt opiniile mele, in baza experientelor personale. Vreau sa raman "smerit" aici. Simt ca sunt in compania multor oameni experimentati aici. cred ca sunt mai multi factori care duc la imaginea 'cainelui real". Unii sunt genetici iar unii sunt rezultate ale dresajului. Cum anume a fost aduc la punctul in acre se afla.

zimbris

  • Guest
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2011, 10:19:41 AM »
Zimbris, I just read your post just before or after, I forgot, and I agree. We cant draw that line. ...And again, these are my opinions based on my experiences.
well really.. same here, I made the statement I just did, because that was my experience with Ben, and nothing in this universe could contest Ben's "real" spirit. One of the agitator Nicu still works with is Ender. i will ask him to post a few words about Ben.

pai sincer.. si eu fac afirmatia pe care am facut-o tot in baza experientelor personale cu Ben. Si nimic in univesrul asta nu poate contrazice faptul ca Ben a fost un caine "real"
One of the agitators Nicu still works with is ender, i will ask him to join and post a few words on Ben.

Offline bobdog

  • BH
  • Posts: 58
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2011, 10:21:26 AM »
I feel I need to share some of my philosophy before I continue. If the dog is worked on "the man" from the beginning in all drives. I feel like the drives we work the dog in is lie a continuum.      
Prey------fight-drive-----defense
                      or
Defense------fight-drive-------prey
If a grown dog is started in defense or if all his prey work was for equipment and then worked hard in defense, and or if he has a lot of defense, geneticly he is more likely to show teeth ect. But if he is worked in prey for the man and developed a strong foundation in such work, as he is pulled toward the defense side of this continuum into fight-drive and or he has less defense and more prey, genetically he will show less teeth etc but is still very real. A case could be made that he might even be more confident in the work.

cred ca trebuie sa precizez anumite filozofii personale inainte de a posta in continuare. In cazul in care cainele este lucrat "pe om" de la bun inceput, in toate instinctele. Eu am impresia ca exista un ciclu anume intre instinctele in care lucram cainele.
Prada----lupta----aparare
           sau
Aparare------lupta------prada
daca se incepe lucrul cu un caine adult in aparare sau daca tot lucrul in prada este efectuat pe echipament (nu pe om) iar ulterior lucrat tare in aparare, sau daca are f multa aparare, genetic el foarte probabil nu isi va arata coltii. dara daca este lucrat in prada pe om si s-a inradacinat bine in aceasta metoda de lucru, pe masura ce e adus inspre partea din aparare a acestui ciclu in inst de lupta sau daca are mai putina aparare si mai multa prada, genetic sunt sanse mai mici sa-si arate coltii etc, dar asta nu inseamna ca nu real. de fapt se poate discuta daca nu cumva un astfel de caine sa fie si mai increzator in lucru.

Offline bobo70

  • SchH3
  • Posts: 1178
Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2011, 10:24:37 AM »
Foarte interesant ce spune Bob.
Thank you Bob for your professional opinions.
Multumim Dani pentru traduceri.