Ciobanescul German de Lucru

[ben]

De ce e postata filmarea asta aici si nu la topicul 'CG de Lucru'?

[guest]

Am intrebat ca sa ma asigur ca nu a ajuns acolo din motive intemeiate, pentru ca nu am apucat sa vizionez filmarea.

[ben]

Am intrebat ca sa ma asigur ca nu a ajuns acolo din motive intemeiate, pentru ca nu am apucat sa vizionez filmarea.

Ai facut foarte bine ca ai intrebat, e bine sa pastram ordine.

[prototype]

De ce e postata filmarea asta aici si nu la topicul 'CG de Lucru'?

Eu am vazut-o dimineata ca era intr-o sectiune gresita, dar n-am indraznit sa mut postarea Mariei Sale.

[ben]

Eu am vazut-o dimineata ca era intr-o sectiune gresita, dar n-am indraznit sa mut postarea Mariei Sale.

..go for it enitaim itz nidid. 

[Man Stopper]

Nepot de Titus si Grim.

That's the look I like to see.

Cel mai mult in place cum arata in poza asta:

[ben]

Pt cine vrea sa-si exerseze engleza...
Usor subiectiv materialul dar oricum, are suficienta realitate.

West Working Lines have become "Sporting Lines" they're good at Schutzhund because they have top notch prey and compliance but NO real social aggression. They're soon to be out of my sights as a functional working dog. But temperamentally they're usually pretty good dogs, friendly dogs who just want to "play" Schutzhund...

DDR dogs are almost as useless...When the DDR fell and moronic Americans saw these big boned, dark, impressive looking dogs they wanted "pure DDR" dogs...So Germans began breeding any ole two DDR dogs together to make money, tada, ruined the line. There are still some good dogs from DDR lines but...good luck sifting through the BS. DDR dogs are much less friendly...perhaps the least friendly of all GSD lines. They don't have as much prey drive as the other working dogs, they operate in protection mainly out of defense. They make great guard dogs for these reasons, but the lack of prey and play drive also means they usually don't make the best Police Service Dogs.

Czech lines WAY back into them...do have a lot of DDR stock. BUT that's where the similarities end. The Czech dogs were actually functional dogs with the Pohranicni straze kennels working up to 30+ males at the same time and studding them to 60+ females. These dogs were active border patrol dogs and worked every day, rain, snow, sleet, and hail. They proved themselves in active duty. These dogs have top notch prey, and top notch social aggression. These are the ideal police dogs. They have enough prey to search all day, and enough social aggression where biting a man isn't a game, it's the chance to HURT somebody, and that's what they want to do, HURT the bad guy, take the fight to the bad guy and sap the fight from him!

Are DDR dogs and Czech dogs more aggressive than West German dogs? I'd say YES. Definitely. Are they too aggressive for the average handler? If you mean the average idiot, yes, then again, most show line GSD's are too. If you mean the average Schutzhund handler who's trained a dog or two? No...unless they get the "right" dog...the dog with so much social aggression he's handler hard. Is there any benefit with combining DDR dogs with West German lines? Yes, there is, it's being done more routinely and it produces dogs who have drive in a balance similar to Czech dogs...but what happens when you breed them all together and the west german lines continue to slip into the abyss?

Drive Ratios? West German "sporting" lines = 100% prey/play...some may have a bit of defense to be honest and fair.

DDR - 80% Defense, 20% prey/play.

Czech 80% Prey, 10% Defense, 10% Social...this is a dog who feels fear because of his amount of defense, but has enough prey and social drive to overcome it for the chance to win. Fear is good, it makes bitework REAL...it makes it serious business. I want my dog when put into a real situation to have his hackles raised slightly. People view raised hackles as weakness. I view it as a dog who takes the work seriously and regards the bad guy as a dangerous being who needs to be taken down with extreme prejudice!!!

[prototype]

Cei care fac performanta in sport au maximum de prada... pai cam pe acolo e treaba. E bine ca-si ia o marja de eroare si zice ca totusi poti gasi in acesti sportivi de performanta , cateva procente din instinctul de lupta.

Raportul 80% aparare - 20% care zice ca se gaseste la cainii DDR, e ceea ce e de dorit la un caine. Nu ma refer la un procentaj calculat si fixat matematic si imprimat, ci sa fie cam pe acolo. Instinctul de aparare, lupta trebuie sa fie mult mai pronuntat decat cel de prada. Doar ca, in ziua de astazi sunt multi crescatori de DDR care fac antrenamente sportive si isi promoveaza cainii in directia asta. Poate la asta sunt buni. S-ar putea ca raportul procentajului de instincte sa fie invers 20 % aparare si 80 % prada. 

Nu prea sunt de acord cu ce zice despre liniile Cehesti. Dupa mintea mea, as zice ca in raportul instinctelor aparare X prada a unui caine de interventie trebuie sa fie un oarecare echilibru. Zic eu. Nu egale, dar ceva mai apropiate. Simte frica sau pericolul? Frica daca-o simte, s-ar putea s-o si traiasca.

[ben]

Nu prea sunt de acord cu ce zice despre liniile Cehesti. Dupa mintea mea, as zice ca in raportul instinctelor aparare X prada a unui caine de interventie trebuie sa fie un oarecare echilibru. Zic eu. Nu egale, dar ceva mai apropiate. Simte frica sau pericolul? Frica daca-o simte, s-ar putea s-o si traiasca.

Pai tot in baza comentariilor asupra cainilor CZ am spus si eu ca e subiectiv omul si, concluzionez ca de fapt asta are si prefera. Dar "chestia" e ca, de fapt mai toti cainii CZ care au ramas in ostorie drept caini buni (ca si reproducatori, ca si exemplare nu am vazut ceva materiale concrete si mergem "pe mana" crescatorului) tot tot caini DDR au in spate. Deci sa afirmi ca un caine CZ e mai bun decat un DDR (cand de fapt primul vine din al 2lea si, vorbim de generatii intregi de caini, nu cazuri izolate).
In schim iol inteleg bine cand isi da cu parerea despre liniile celelalte, desi daca ma uit la Hun, de exemplu, are si drive mult si ca si lucru de strada/politie, ar lua bulina rosie fara probleme. In schimb Nala si Briska dar mai ales Nala, se incadreaza foarte bine in descrierea astuia si a altora pe net; anume ca e mai calma, e jucausa dar nu are drive-ul ala tipic cainilor vestici si, (ceea ce si cautam!!) este "serioasa" in paza (par zburlit, latrat gros, postura "erecta") altfel spus, "defense" cum zice nenea ala.

Bravo tie ca ai citit materialul, cine chiar doreste sa se informeze asupra rasei, se informeaza; majoritatea, in forumul asta dar de fapt majoritatea forumurilor, intra doar sa vada lumea ce caine frumos si inteligent are. Nimic rau in asta dar, daca cineva vrea cu adevarat sa ajute rasa (care trece printr-o perioada nu tocmai roz) se intereseaza, se informeaza.

[ben]

Raportul 80% aparare - 20% care zice ca se gaseste la cainii DDR, e ceea ce e de dorit la un caine.

Ia si felul 2    o alta parere in privinta %. Retinem numitorii comuni pt a se trage o concluzie care sa aiba stabilitate.
Am ingrosat un aspect care trebuie luat in considerare, pt ca multi vorbesc doar in seama opiniilor altora, nu pt ca au vazut cainii "first hand", cum se spune.


A long time a go, prior to the wall coming down, DDR dogs were very serious working dogs with a lot of defense drive in them, but, one needs to remember the reasons they bred these dogs and the work they expected of them. Being tied to a dog house on a long leash, fed once a week and expected to stop anyone trying to cross your part of the border....
I liked those back then and I am old enough to know them and been around long enough to have seen them. They were REAL in what they did.

West German lines are not worth discussing here as I believe that in the last 20 years breeders in that country have stuck their heads in the conformation toilet so deeply that the German police told the SV club, during their National trials, that they will no longer procure dogs, GSD's, from the SV, they are going to Holland to get Malinois that can actually do police work.

The Czech dogs are a product of the old DDR lines and I must give it to Jiri Novotny for spending 20 years in charge of their genetics/breeding and training program in the old PzS kennel there, before the curtain fell. They were able to create some outstanding specimens that proved their worth by working every single day of the week in conditions that truly sucked.
As far as % in drives, I am not as generous as Curtis has been here...the old DDR dogs I have seen with my own eyes were VERY serious dogs, sometimes too serious, and I would say that they had a 50% defense and a 50% prey drive in them. They did after all have to do police work as well in the former DDR!!!
The current Czech dogs, in my opinion they are watered down as well as other breeds are from what they used to be since the curtain fell and I will agree with Curtis in their drive %'s.
I still like them, I know of no other lines that produce consistently the kind of dogs they are able to produce...
Are they safe in a family as a PPD? I would say that the vast majority are, yes. There will always be that one dog that cannot make it as one because of his temperament and maybe suited more for police work with a handler that is experienced and knows how to handle one, but, yes, you can feel secure, IF you are not a moron, that a good Czech dog will be able to live in the house without eating the family.

[prototype]

Vad ca asta imparte in mod egal valoarea procentajulului intre instincte. Nu rezonez cu el. Eu cred ca cel de aparare trebuie sa fie mai pronuntat. Atat.
Pana la urma nu poti stabili un cuantum al procentajului de instincte. Poate doar daca vine un pishologo-fizician si face o teorema, ceva, prin care se afla in mod exact ce procentaj de instincte are fiecare individ.

Concluzia lui e la fel ca a celuilalt: CZ e crema cremelor scoasa din DDR.

[ben]

DDR-ul ca si tip, ramanea ceva tare de tot (spun asta functie de asteptarike mele) daca nemtii nu se grabeau sa monteze aiyeea si mult, doar ca da mai scoata un ban. Au vandut mult americanilir care nu au stiut cum sa foliseasca ce au adus. Bodo Lierberg si N Jim sunt cazurile clasice, cred.

[guest]

Am citit mai devreme, pot spune ca si eu sunt de acord cu faptul ca un bun caine de protectie si paza trebuie sa aiba mai mult instinct de aparare decat de prada. Avand in vedere ca liniile CZ descind din DDR, cum de la DDR este 80% aparare si 20% prada, iar la CZ e invers proportional raportul instinctelor? Ca nu prea inteleg... Poate se refera la majoritatea cainilor CZ recenti (?).
Spune bine, CZ erau caini functionali si lucrau in conditii greu de imaginat (la fel ca si cei DDR din frontiera), dar si in cazul lor, generatii intregi de caini de canapea plus mixati cu mult sange vestic si-au spus cuvantul, cred.

[ben]

Despre procentaje in instinte - banuiesc ca s-au teas niste concluzii generale dupa analiz reactiilor unui nr marisor de exemplare. Oricun, cei care AU, nu doar cunosc despre CG DDR, prezinta cam acelasi feedback.

[ben]

Am o zi plina azi si putin timp liber dar diseara sper, voi posta niste secvente video de la demonstratii ale Politiei vest Germane unde se vede calitatea slaba a cainilor. Este vorba aici si de ce aminteste unul din cei de mai sus, respecriv Ed Frawley cu materialul pe care l-am tradus si postat pe Zimbris, despre ruperea colaborarii Politiei Germane cu Clubul.