Line Breeding/ In Breeding

[Man Stopper]

I am a strong believer for line/in Breeding, as this i feel creates that wild and natural form of getting the dog with all those attributes one is looking for.
Even though you might get some faults and crap, i still think its worth it in my opinion... Sire X daughter, and especially Uncle X niece is the one i would consider first.. Just looking through many different combinations, to see if there is some kind of pattern that breeders are trying to use and create for there long term breeding.. Eg; i study lines from Ex Reidstern and see what was produced and was it by chance or intentionally thru selective linebreeding..
Still learning the DDR lines system and how important it is to those who's aim is to breed, just like they did in the old days... I at times go back and study the Ali v Granert and the Barry Andeshoffer etc... offspring and where that lead to, but it just ends up confusing me

[zimbris]

Hmm.. let's see..
Well so far I try and learn from what others have done in the past. As far as the DDR lines go, I think the path is getting narrower with time. I managed to find some dogs I like but they're all the way in the States!! Even so, I would like to get a close look in real life, not just based on the pedigree. I have a 'thing' for the dogs who have the 'crazy' Zorro on both parents' side. Like yourself, I'm still learning, but I tell you what I am beginning to see - combination of west and east lines! Some of the best dogs out there come from such breedings. I am for Line / In Breeding too, but one has to be careful with these things eventually. I think at this point in time I would try and mix as much different blood as possible - that is why, if you lived any closer to Romania - I would have bred Axa to Onyx!!!
Give a few more years and I will know better what to say. I am still learning...

[Johnsk9]

In the DDR they did close line breeding and inbreeding they bred Held ritterberg to his mother burga haus himple whisky and isis ritterberg were 2 children from this they were then bred back to helds brother and sister. Here is one of the tables
These gave good dogs

In fosta RDG se practica des consangvinizarea stransa, Held ritterberg a fost montat cu mama sa Burga haus Himple si isis Ritterberg erau 2 produsi dintr-o astfel de monta care la randul lor au fost montati cu sora /respectiv/ fratele lui Held. Iata un astfel de tabel
Acestia au dat caini buni.

[zimbris]

Was this an isolated situation, or did they do that with other dogs too?

asta a fost un caz izolat, sau s-a facut lucrul asta si cu alti caini?

[Johnsk9]

I would say this was not uncommon.this and close line breeding is used to keep a type of dog one desires. If you look at many of the old pedigrees you will find extreme line breeding.Most of these were very goods/ Look at this ( http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/22234.html ) You see  they use Held-Golf-Grand vom Ritterberg but most important all the  Bernd vom Lierberg
This is what dive the old hard dogs   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/ped ... 22234.html -6 generations

[Johnsk9]

It is also interesting to look into van Tiekerhook breedings. He is world known for the type of dog his kennel tries to maintain.Many line breedings in the blood.

este interesant sa urmaresti si programele de crestere van Tiekerhook. el este cunoscut la nivel mondial pt tipul de caine pe care incearca sa-l mentina. Multe consangvinizari si acolo.

[zimbris]

Yes, Max produces amazing pups. A friend of ours in Iasi recently brought over a male pup sired by Max, he already promises to be an awesome dog.
This is the puppy I'm talking about:

[youtube:22xc4kuw]Iyv2G4wsQxk[/youtube:22xc4kuw]

[zimbris]

I would say this was not uncommon.this and close line breeding is used to keep a type of dog one desires. If you look at many of the old pedigrees you will find extreme line breeding.Most of these were very goods/ Look at this ( http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/22234.html ) You see  they use Held-Golf-Grand vom Ritterberg but most important all the  Bernd vom Lierberg
This is what dive the old hard dogs   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/ped ... 22234.html -6 generations

hmmmm... this is really starting to get my attention..
based on plain theory, it would be hard for me to believe that close breeding would produce good dogs, but I guess facts don't lie.

[Johnsk9]

Bodo and Bernd vom Lierberg were the best ever dogs breed even today.When they are close in the blood the give aggressive pups.Sure they had their problems But that is why they blend other blood into the dogs.You see you just can't breed just high aggressions you need to find other trait from different blood to make up the whole dog. Example a softer dogs with great nose blended in for tracking or strong nerve dog minor aggression to improve nerve strength.
You must consider all of this to have balanced  breeding program. What is wrong with the GSD today. We breed out civil aggression to sell more dogs. We breed over the top drive to chase ball and bit sleeve. We bred the dog to show beauty. Now we have the average dog we see today shit. The SV ruined the GSD in Germany now you have new group trying to bring back the old GSD.  But in Germany the DDR blood is gone.........Here is the link
http://www.rsv2000.de/

[zimbris]

Bodo and Bernd vom Lierberg were the best ever dogs breed even today.When they are close in the blood the give aggressive pups.Sure they had their problems But that is why they blend other blood into the dogs.You see you just can't breed just high aggressions you need to find other trait from different blood to make up the whole dog. Example a softer dogs with great nose blended in for tracking or strong nerve dog minor aggression to improve nerve strength.
You must consider all of this to have balanced  breeding program. What is wrong with the GSD today. We breed out civil aggression to sell more dogs. We breed over the top drive to chase ball and bit sleeve. We bred the dog to show beauty. Now we have the average dog we see today shit. The SV ruined the GSD in Germany now you have new group trying to bring back the old GSD.  But in Germany the DDR blood is gone.........Here is the link
http://www.rsv2000.de/

Yes I know of RSV2000, I posted a link to it on our website. I am curious to know what they will achieve in the coming months / years. according to statements on a ped Database forum, the SV are banning those who become members of the new RSV2000. About 2 years ago, when I started to really become interested in the remaining population of DDR dogs, I emailed a breeder in Germany as I was looking to buy a puppy from him, but instead he offered me a Mali pup, telling me the DDR type of dogs are on their way to making just history, due to close inbreeding.

[Johnsk9]

I would like to know the name of the breeder that told you that.The problem is when the wall came down there was money to be made. They were poor people with a government that did not care for them so they started selling all the ddr dogs to have money. Read bloodline information. Read about the different line 5a -11 a-e -12 -13a link
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... ation.html
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... harts.html

In the end they had little lines left and most were then mixed with the west.Why the west Germans made big money selling show dogs.The people of the east wanted to make money this caused more lines to be lost.The bloodline 13A which 99% of the people have today is all that remains. Being a dog breeder why did not one recognize the need to isolate these lines and maintain to have alternate bloods to keep this unique type dogs alive. It does not say much for them they lost a very important part of dog history and more so it was their on piece of history
. I am the only person i know of who has the blood with out the new left over east german line 13a. I do not breed this.
 in Germany they only want KKL1 and V rating many old working dogs can not be this Why this is not for working dogs
The americans who had more DDr blood then the Germans also mixed and lost the lines
Bodo vom Lierberg  was sold into the usa he was not used by the breeders

[zimbris]

I would like to know the name of the breeder that told you that.The problem is when the wall came down there was money to be made. They were poor people with a government that did not care for them so they started selling all the ddr dogs to have money. Read bloodline information. Read about the different line 5a -11 a-e -12 -13a link
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... ation.html
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... harts.html

In the end they had little lines left and most were then mixed with the west.Why the west Germans made big money selling show dogs.The people of the east wanted to make money this caused more lines to be lost.The bloodline 13A which 99% of the people have today is all that remains. Being a dog breeder why did not one recognize the need to isolate these lines and maintain to have alternate bloods to keep this unique type dogs alive. It does not say much for them they lost a very important part of dog history and more so it was their on piece of history
. I am the only person i know of who has the blood with out the new left over east german line 13a. I do not breed this.
 in Germany they only want KKL1 and V rating many old working dogs can not be this Why this is not for working dogs
The americans who had more DDr blood then the Germans also mixed and lost the lines
Bodo vom Lierberg  was sold into the usa he was not used by the breeders

That is exactly what I asked myself after reading the history of the DDR dogs, after the wall came down - why didn't the Americans use what they had??!! That does not make any sense to me at all... they had pure gold in their hands.......  No offence to you or any Americans in general, it's just a question I asked myself many times.

[zimbris]

Pt romani, ca sa nu traduc fiecare postare in parte;
Johnsk9 vorbeste despre consangvinizarea stransa practicata de crescatorii din fosta RDG, din care ieseau caini buni - bine-nteles si cu probleme pe ici pe colo.

just giving the short version of our conversation for the Romanians who don't speak English.

[Man Stopper]

Have read that it's important that the female is the key when breeding.. Have also read that the maternal grandsire of the pup plays a big part genetically, yet well known breeders seem to mention the Sire lines..  Example belonging to a particular bloodline as Jiri from Jinipo likes to state and other breeders mentioning Line 13 12a and so on... Looking through how dogs in the past were matched and trying to figure out if they followed a system or did they match dogs on how they performed and not what they are on paper...Are dogs of today better then the past, IF so, why ? And if not once again, WHY ?

[zimbris]

Have read that it's important that the female is the key when breeding.. Have also read that the maternal grandsire of the pup plays a big part genetically, yet well known breeders seem to mention the Sire lines..  Example belonging to a particular bloodline as Jiri from Jinipo likes to state and other breeders mentioning Line 13 12a and so on... Looking through how dogs in the past were matched and trying to figure out if they followed a system or did they match dogs on how they performed and not what they are on paper...Are dogs of today better then the past, IF so, why ? And if not once again, WHY ?

Dogs of today better than the past - in my humble opinion - NO. I believe the hunger for finances has taken the minds of many breeders or in some cases, so-called breeders.
I guess there are different opinions as to which parent / grandparent etc plays a bigger part in determing the quality of the progenies... In my own view, one has to simply judge things by facts, not by statements. That takes time I guess, but in the end it's all worth it. I have not been breeding for a long time at all, only recently; but that is because I did not want to breed 'anything', I wanted to be sure (at least to some extent) that I know what I am doing. And so what I've learned so far - that there are plenty compromises along the way and you can't avoid mistakes.  But going back to the topic title, I am coming to learn that, some of the best dogs of the past were closely line-bred. Although many put line-breeding in a bad light....