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Line Breeding/ In Breeding
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Offline Leo Pui

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2011, 11:37:21 AM »
Personally point of view, I will do a father & daughter in-breeding but I wont "dare" to so for mother & son breeding ... it just get too close!

I have a friend in Philippines that once did the mother and son breeding, the end result is kind of "bad" ... only one male pup is consider good among the entire litter of seven.

When come to close line-breeding or In-breeding ... to me, it actually double the good and double the bad too ...

Now, I would like to share the study article, which I learn through out in 1998 when I am still breeding White Shepherd Dog ...


LEO PUI
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Get Real, Train Real & Be Real
Do It RIGHT And Fear NO ONE
========================

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2011, 12:43:33 PM »
personal , voi face o monta tata-fiica dar nu as "indrazni" sa fac una mama-fiu...e prea aproape!
am un prieten in Philipines care a facut odata o monta mama-fiu, iar rezultatul a fost "cam rau"...doar un singur mascul a fost considerat viabil dintr-un cuib de 7
 cand vorbim de selectie pe linie..pentru mine, se dubleaza partile pozitive, dar se dubleaza si partile negative
Acum as vrea sa impartasesc un articol stiintific, pe care l-am studiat  prin 1998 cand inca selectionam ciobanesti albi



culoarea blanii vine de la o simpla gena recesiva.Ca sa ma exprin mai simplu, pentru a produce un pui alb, ambii parinti trebuie sa poarte aceeasi gena pentru culoarea alba.Gena culorii albe nu este asociata cu gena care determina pierderea culorii la Ciobanescul German, atat timp cat cele 2 gene sunt localizate in locuri diferite.Este probabil posibil ca un ciobanesc alb sa poarte aceste gene care dilueaza culoarea.dar, atat timp cat cainele este alb complet, factorul de diluare nu se va exprima asupra culorii blanii.
 
toti cainii au un total de 78 de cromozomi, ce sunt mosteniti de la ambii parinti la momentul conceptiei.deci fiecare parinte contribuie cu jumatate din bagajul genetic al puiului,39 de la mascul si 39 de la femela.
In termeni simpli , cromozomii (ce transmit genele) se gasesc in perechi.Se aliniaza asa incat genele pe care le transmit se vor gasi intotdeauna in perechi.
Fiecare pereche de gene controleaza o anumita trasatura, ori singura ori in combinatie cu alte gene pereche.Daca genele care alcatuiesc o anumita pereche sunt identice, se spune ca acel caine este "homozigot" pentru acea pereche de gene.daca perechea este "amestecata", acel caine este"heterozigot" pentru acea pereche.
Aceste perechi de gene, actionand in combinatie una cu alta determina ce caracteristici va prezenta cainele-si anume alcatuiesc genotipul.toti ciobanestii albi sunt homozigoti pentru perechea de gene responsabila pentru culoare alba.  
  Daca am numi gena alba w, atunci toti ciobanestii albi vor trebui sa aibaurmatorul genotip ww.(un caine care nu este alb ar trebui sa aiba ori WW ori Ww)  
Daca selectam cainele nostru alb, singura gena capabila sa contribuie asupra puilor este w.
Ati auzit termenul de fenotip,ce descrie aspectul fizic al unui animal.Deci fenotipul unui ciobanesc ce mosteneste gena ww va fi cel al unui caine alb complet.
Problema cu fenotipul este ca nu intotdeanuna ceea ce vezi nu este tot una cu ceea ce obtii.In multe cazuri, nu poti spune cu exactitate genotipul doar privind fenotipul.
Spre examplu un caine black&tan ar putea sa fie homozigot pentru alta culoare decat alb(WW).un asemenea caine ar putea fi capabil sa produca un pui alb complet,, chiar reprodus cu un caine alb , asta pentru ca nu poarta gena recesiva alba.
Totusi, un caine black&tan ar putea sa transmita gena pentru culoare alba(heterozigot pentru culoarea perechea de gene albe) si nu ai putea sti lucrul acesta, doar vazand aspectul lui(functie de fenotipul lui) pentru ca gena dominanta W acopera sau domina gena recesiva a partenerului sau.
un ciobanesc colora ce nu poarta gena recesiva w(homozigot pentru W) reprodus cu un alt homozigot W ha produce un cuib de pui non-albi, pui netransmitatori.asemanator, doi ciobanesti albi(homozigoti pentru w), inmultiti impreuna nu vor putea produce niciodata un pui colorat.

putem folosi un simplu "cos" patrat pentru a determina probabilitatea producerii unor pui albi dintr-un parinte alb si unul non-alb daca cunoastem genotipul parintelui non-alb.
    
in primul patrat, vedem rezultatul potential pentru selectia a 2 parinti ce poarta impreuna aceeasi gena.(vom defini purtatorul ca fiind un caine non-alb purtator al genei, cunoscut si sub numele de "factorul alb").cu aceasta monta , avem un potential de 25%de a obtine un cuib alb (ww), 25 & sanse sa avem homozigoti non-albi(WW) si 50 % sanse de a avea heterozigoti non-albi(Ww poarta factorul alb)exista posibilitatea ca  jumatate din cuib sa fie albi in timp ce cealalta jumatate sa fie cu factorul alb(heterozigoti)asemeni parintelui lor non-alb.

Al treilea exemplu, selectam un homozigot non-alb cu un partener alb.nici unul dintre acesti pui nu va fi alb, dar toti au mostenit factorul alb si pot transmite culoarea alb daca sunt reprodusi cu un alt purtator sau cu un partener alb.
In al patrulea exemplu, reproducem un caine cu factorul alb cu un partener nepurtator al homozigotului.iarasi, nici unul dintre puii rezultati nu va fi alb, dar aproximativ jumatate dintre ei vor putea fi purtatori ai genei albe.
cealalta jumatate ar fi homozigoti nepurtatori.
singura metoda prin care putem spune daca un pui a mostenit factorul alb ar fi sa facem o monta test cu un partener alb.
 daca nu rezulta nici un pui alb, atunci vei putea sti ca acep parinte este probabil nepurtator, sau homozigot pentru WW.
 Este o explicatie simplista si nu tine seama de actiunea altor gene plasate in alte locuri.Dar ar trebui sa explice cum si de ce culoarea alba poate fi transmisa cateva generatii la rand fara sa se manifeste pentru ca mai apoi sa apara subit intr-un cuib de ciobanesti

Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline guest

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2011, 12:48:37 PM »
Kangdanlin  :beer:

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2011, 01:04:21 PM »
no problem..daca am facut vreo greseala, imi cer scuze...sunt cam obosit la ora asta :undecided:
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline bobo70

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2011, 01:16:05 PM »
no problem..daca am facut vreo greseala, imi cer scuze...sunt cam obosit la ora asta :undecided:

Super kangdanlin. Multumim pentru traducere. :ok:

Offline Man Stopper

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2011, 09:20:12 PM »
personal nu m-as baga la consangvinizari f stranse... dar in fine, e doar alegerea mea..  chiar sunt curios sa vad ce rezultate vei obtine

Personally I wouldn't make too close line breedings...but anyway, it's only my oppinion. I'm actually curios to find out what results you will obtain.

Most times i guess the bad outweighs the good.
SG Whisky vom Ritterberg is close to V Pushkab vom Haus Himpel, which would of  given him the genetics for his titles especially SP-PS..
But as for his physical structure looks nothing like Pushkab or Held Ritterberg..! More like Bernd vom Lierberg who is there 4 times in the first
5 generations..!   

Offline Man Stopper

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2011, 01:39:31 AM »
Is there a differance if a Stud dogs genetics are passes onto Male progeny or female offspring..
Have noticed that many well know Stud dogs 'female' progeny make up the majority of a 6 generation pedigree..
For example if it was 5,5 -4,5,5 on Ex v Riedstern. most wouold be through his female offspring..

zimbris

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2011, 03:53:47 AM »
Is there a differance if a Stud dogs genetics are passes onto Male progeny or female offspring..
Have noticed that many well know Stud dogs 'female' progeny make up the majority of a 6 generation pedigree..
For example if it was 5,5 -4,5,5 on Ex v Riedstern. most wouold be through his female offspring..
woof... you're throwing in some heavy weight questions, I would rather have someone like John answer that, I think...

Offline Man Stopper

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2011, 09:05:22 AM »
Bringing in a type we're after should be a Stud dog who is linebred 3 - 2 on a favoured dog "X".
Who then is mated to a bitch who's Paternal Sire or Grandsire is the same favoured dog "X".
So we then have "X" being 4,3 - 3 for example..
Ex vom Riedstern is an example with him being 4,3 - 3 on Ali Granert..
Just a theory i would personally follow..
Doesn't mean no guarantee, but close enough IMO...   


Offline Man Stopper

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2011, 07:37:41 AM »
When inbreeding and line breeding are repeated, within an overflow of similar lines.. After how many generations of this should there be an outcross, would it be after 3 or 4 close line mating ??
Just wondering how Santos views this when mating Grief so many times.. Does it click better with differant or same line bitches..

Offline ShepherdsByDesignK9

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2011, 05:48:44 PM »
Personally I do line breeding and have never inbred before. You have to first understand that when doing these line breeds yes you have a greater chance on stacking the odds in your favor, but also have the chance of amplifying the bad in 3 times as bad. We also have to ask ourselves whether the dog we are line breeding on has strong enough genetics to do this a number of times. You also have to think ahead of time as to what you are going to out cross this line with rather than wait til the last minute and find yourself limited as to who to go to on your out cross breeding.

For instance: I will bring up Klara z Pohranicni Straze for an example, Although she was an excellent working dog, she was also displastic. Now having this dog in your Czech dog can be very bad as I have seen pups even 7 generations away from her still have chances of having bad hips. When we line breed we have that chance of bring back bad issues in our pups and with Klara in a pedigree I generally walk away from the dog just for that reason. For many years they had said that you can't successfully line breed in Grim z Pohranicni Straze. Part of this is truth and the other is just not. What I mean by the truth is that you can successfully do this ONLY if there isn't any crap dogs in the 2 pedigrees. But to bring Grim back a 2nd time is rather risky.

Now to add inbreeding to our breeding I'm just not as knowledgeable on this procedure and until I fully understand the total picture I'm happy to continue on breeding in the way I am for now,
Narys Policia Slovakia
Faust Cierna Vdova

zimbris

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2011, 11:36:06 PM »
It's smart that you don't just throw yourself into something without trying to understand it first, if not completely, at least in part. I never really had an eye for line breeding until talking to John LaTorre, now i think the world of it, although I do not consider myself very experienced much at all but rather a passionate learner. Since the "heavy weights" of dog breeding consider line breeding to be good, I better pay attention to it too.
Bringing back a dog - I guess like you put it, you want to do that IF the dog was good allover and IF when bred to different bitches, he produced well with minimum health issues. From what I understand, Don Rolandsteich and Zorro Laager Wall were such dogs, with Zorro not passing a nice mask but I could care less about that, as long as the right temperament is in place and a slow percentage of bad hips or elbows.

Offline ShepherdsByDesignK9

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2011, 12:13:46 AM »
Dan we have to not get caught up in the hip production as some breeders here will only breed to good or excellent hip dogs which limits the gene pool considerably. As you have seen when the Czech would breed something with less than perfect hips they would bring it to an improver for hips. Lets take Titus z Pohranicni Straze as an example, when you see this dog in pedigrees you have to also look at why they brought these females to Titus as he was a known improver of structure although passed testicle issues if linebred too much on. I see a lot of breeders get caught up in the hip production and they don't realize that some of these dogs that may have fair hips also have everything else one would look for in a breeding dog, but to pass them up is really just hurting our breed for the future. We also have to be careful not to bring the same dog back too many times as its genetics may not be strong enough to do so.

John has had his issues with Titus dogs in the past which I'm sure he would be happy to share with you as he did with me a few years ago

Tiekerhook ( Forgive my spelling) has been known for what he breeds, but most don't know about the litters that have been culled due to the breeding not producing what he wanted or was looking for in his pups. There was a lot of inbreeding in his lines to get what he has today. Now I have seen some that have bought dogs from him and had nothing but issues with their breeding only due to not selecting the correct male or female to breed back to his dogs. And for this reason I have steered away from inbreeding only due to not having the knowledge needed to do this type of breedings.
Narys Policia Slovakia
Faust Cierna Vdova

zimbris

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2011, 12:17:51 AM »
Oh, believe me I'm with you on this one, I wouldn't eliminate a dog from breeding due to bad hips UNLESS he passes that on regardless of the females it gets bred to. Quite a few of the great dogs we know, came from ancestors that suffered from HD.
To be honest, I believe all this HD/ED was taken to an extreme, with a hidden agenda, by major clubs such as the SV. There, I said it    :lol:

Offline ShepherdsByDesignK9

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Re: Line Breeding/ In Breeding
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2011, 09:27:15 PM »
I believe all this HD/ED was taken to an extreme, with a hidden agenda, by major clubs such as the SV. There, I said it    :lol:

Yep now you opened up a can of worms...lol  As I posted in I believe Narys Policia's pictures is a cross in which I plan on bring to my Faro lines for one breeding and then going back to my lines again lines
Narys Policia Slovakia
Faust Cierna Vdova