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Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
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zimbris

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2011, 10:52:48 AM »
Bob, that is exactly the point Dux is planning to make later on. That is what he is teaching the dog to do in the video - keep the focus on the MAN by having the agitator re-attack with the use of the whip. Oh well, I will let Dux make the comments.  :)

exact asta vrea Dux sa arate prin acest clip. sa mentina focusul pe OM, atentatorul foloseste biciul pt a tine cainele "conectat" pe el, nu pe manson. dar il voi lasa pe Dux sa comenteze mai mult :)

Offline bobdog

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2011, 10:55:50 AM »
 :beer:

zimbris

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2011, 11:02:30 AM »
 beer2

Offline bobdog

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2011, 12:02:51 PM »
I enjoyed it Ya'll, but I must sleep. :goodnight:

zimbris

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2011, 12:08:00 PM »
well get a good rest Bob! I'm sure you'll find more stuff to read through when you're back online.  :)

Offline dux

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2011, 01:40:10 PM »
Approaches with confidence and looks positive for early stages of training..
Have you considered doing hidden sleeve for more of a focus on MAn ?

ati luat in considerare si lucrul cu mansonul ascuns, in vederea focusarii mai bine asupra OMULUI?
,,Mansonul ascuns'' reprezinta un sablon pe care cainele il simte olfactiv.daca folosesti mansonul ascuns de cateva ori cainele va asocia mirosul lui si chiar daca il ascunzi tot il simte si isi va orienta atacul ca si pe un manson ,,la vedere''.Noi ne lasam inselati de faptul ca daca facem un antrenament cu un manson acoperit de maneca unei haine ,credem ca cainele nu realizeaza acest lucru.sa nu uitam ca aceste animale ,,vad cu nasul''.
La fel si cu costumul.In opinia mea costumul reprezinta un manson de dimensiuni mai mari.
Eu focusez cainele folosindu-ma de atitudinea infractorului dupa ce elibereaza ,,sablonul''.cainele trebuie sa invete sa reactioneze cu fermitate la infractorul cu atitudine ostila fata de el.atitudinea trebuie sa declanseze atacul si nu prezenta unui echipament anume.
recompensarea cainelui nu inseamna neaparat,, muscatura finala''.eu definesc recompensa ca fiind acel ceva care incurajeaza cainele.fuga infractorului reprezinta pentru caine o recompensa foarte buna .la acest tip de recompensa cainele ramane cu o mica frustrare pe care poti s-o speculezi la urmatoarea lansare.muscatura
din frustrare este mai violenta decat muscatura creata din sentimentul ca animalul isi capata mereu echipamentul.

The "hidden sleeve" is yet another pattern, intercepted by the dog by smell. if you use the hidden sleve several times, the dog will memorize its sense and even though hidden, he will place his grip on it just like on a normal sleeve. We sometimes think that by using a hidden sleeve the dog does not know it is there but let's remember dogs 'see' very well with their nose.
Goes the same with the bite suit. In my view, that is just another 'sleeve", but at bigger size.
I focus the dog by using the agitator's attitude, once the dog outs the "pattern" / (sleeve etc). The dog needs to learn to firmly react to the hostile agitator. It that attitude that generates the right response, not a piece of equipment.
reward doesn't necessarily mean "final bite / grip". I define the 'reward' by that element that brings encouragement to the dog. The dog is rewarded when seeing the agitator flee. As a result of this type of reward the dog gets frustrated of which one can make use with the following bite. A "frustration" based bite is more powerful than that which somes from the thought that the animal will always get the piece of equipment.


Offline dux

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2011, 01:51:53 PM »
To the bone? :think: Really,  :devil: I can be pretty critical and very opinionated. Well here goes. Really very good work! I am so impressed with the things I see in your dogs that I would tend to believe are genetic also!  :CG:     Really only.......................................
[/color]

In prima parte am lasat intentionat cainele sa reactioneze natural.fara sa intervina infractorul.dupa cum se vede ,catelul lasa mansonul si incepe sa-l miroasa.in partea a doua cainele dupa ce musca nu mai este lasat sa-l miroasa.infractorul vine peste el cu biciul si astfel cainele reactioneaza asupra lui.recompensarea se face prin fuga infractorului (ceea ce-i creeaza frustrare ).In urmatoarea priza frustrarea il determina sa fie mai ,,furios'' pe manson.
atacul in botnita reprezinta in opinia mea cel mai bun exercitiu pentru un caine de strada.
cand voi avea timp am sa postez mai mult pe acest subiect.

In the first part of the clip I intentionally let the dog to react naturally, with the agitator doing nothing in that regard. As you can see, the dog drops the sleeve and starts sniffing it. In the 2nd part, the dog is not let to just sniff it. The agitator returns with the whip and so the dog reacts. The rewards takes place by having the agitator flee (which generates a dosage of frustration). Then with the following bite, out of that frustration comes a more "mad" grip.
In my own view the muzzle work is the best exercise for a street/real dog. I will post more on this when I find some time.

Offline RogerW

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2011, 02:25:32 PM »
Great work, Dux..  Bob is my trainer for  my dogs...and I respect and listen to him.  I really like listening (closely) to you and Santos and Dani also for these genetically blessed German Shepherds.

This is GOOD work.  Can't wait to hear Manstopper, Bobo.my bud Kangdanlin, and others..., and especially  our great great bud Leo that works real security...can't wait to hear us all chime in on real work...this is a great board.

Offline Leo Pui

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2011, 08:17:34 PM »
... In my own view the muzzle work is the best exercise for a street/real dog. I will post more on this when I find some time.
This is the statement that we believe and we do a lot this type of training once the said dog "pass" through the level of bite-work, apart from muzzle-work, we do a lot of so-called civil agitation too.  Once in the blue-moon, we hit hard on the dogs!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIAToNDppPI[/youtube]
The agitation

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgieTN7NwA0[/youtube]
The muzzle work!

Great work, Dux..  Bob is my trainer for  my dogs...and I respect and listen to him.  I really like listening (closely) to you and Santos and Dani also for these genetically blessed German Shepherds.

This is GOOD work.  Can't wait to hear Manstopper, Bobo.my bud Kangdanlin, and others..., and especially  our great great bud Leo that works real security...can't wait to hear us all chime in on real work...this is a great board.
I may have my own view when come to dog-working and many of the times, I have difficulties in expressing myself to have a proper description.  Let me see if I can at least drop to share some later.  Reading and learning from someone else is always something that I always do  ;) :cool:  :lol:  
LEO PUI
========================
Get Real, Train Real & Be Real
Do It RIGHT And Fear NO ONE
========================

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2011, 01:07:39 AM »
bobdog,

I like to use toy(tug) as a rerward for search/find items, this is very enjoyable for Casso where its fun and games.
But as for the 'bad guy' work i would not want any distraction by using a toy as 'reward'. He should differentiate between fun/games and Eg Protection work.
The distraction could be a 'stick' which a decoy brings out, and K9 responds by aiming for the weapon.
With chasing moving objects i like the dog to be focused on me, and even if i throw 100 objects the dog is within close range to grip.
In future this main object would be "helper" in suit, where the 'out' command would be used, only would be just prior to the dog losing drive..
So there can be a pause/break (10 - 15 sec) before releasing onto moving object (helper) once again to hold with minimal growling.GAME OVER
Its so easy with genetics to reach our goals, especially for protection work, but you guys are right there is a few differant paths to choose to help us get there..

bobdog,
imi place sa folosesc jucaria(batonul) ca recompensa pentru cautari, este foarte distractiv pentru Casso .
Dar in ceea ce priveste lucrul cu infractor nu doresc sa am parte de distractii prin folosirea jucariei ca si recompensa.ar trebui sa faca diferenta intre joaca si treaba serioasa.
Distractia ar putea sa fie un bat pe care ajutorul il aduce, iar cainele sa raspunda dorind sa elimine arma.
Cu obiecte de vanat imi place sa am un caine atent la mine, si chiar daca il arung 100 obiecte cainele este foarte aproape de prindere.
In viitor aest obiect principal va fi Ajutorul in costum, iar comanda OUt va fi folosita, doar putin inainte ca el sa-si piarda interesul.
Deci poate fi o pauza de 10-15 secunde, inainte de a-l trimite spre un obiect in miscare/Ajutor din nou asa incat sa protesteze cat mai putin.GAME OVER
este asa de usor datorita geneticii sa ne atingem scopurile, special in protectie,dar aveti dreptate cand spuneti ca sunt cai diferite pentru a ne ajuta sa ajungem acolo unde dorim...
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2011, 01:17:54 AM »
Man stopper
I don't see anything wrong necessarily in toys and grip work with the owner/handler. But I don't bring a dog up doing these things with anyone but the handler. I also want to make sure to keep this in balance with man work. What I mean by this is If the dog has been turned on to a "bad guy" and you pull a toy out of your pocket, the desire for the bad guy should be higher. if the dog in this situation would just as soon play with the toy, he/she is "out of balance." Dogs I raise as dual purpose police dogs have to like a toy, it part of what drives their search work. But if the decoy were to throw a toy at this same dog, he should have no interest in it.

I don't think the "out" is a sport thing. I also don't think it is impossible in a real encounter. Much more difficult in some cases for the dog. But not impossible. I know where Roger is coming from when he says he thinks a dog who will out is not as reliable on the grip. A lot of hogdog/bulldog people share this opinion. and training the reliable out without a dog anticipating it and with it having no effect on his grip is an art.
Man stopper
Nu este obligatoriu ca folosirea jucariilor in protectie impreuna cu conductorul/stapanul.dar nu  introduc lucrurile acestea decat cu stapanul/conductorul.De asemeni incerc sa mentin un echilibru in ce priveste lucrul pe om.ce vreau sa spun cu asta este ca daca ai un caine transformat in "baiat rau"si tu scoti o jucarie din buzunar, dorinta de a prinde infractorul ar trebui sa fie mai mare.daca in situatia respectiva caineme mai degraba s-ar juca, atunci acela nu este un caine echilibrat.Cainii crestuti de mine ca si caini de politie cu scop dublu, trebuie sa fie atrasi de jucarii, ca parte a instinctului pentru munca de detectie.Dar daca Ajutorul ar fi sa arunce spre ei cu jucaria, nu ar trebui sa fie interesati de ea.
Comanda OUT nu este o comanda pentru sport.de aemeni nu cred ca este imposibil ca intr-o situatie reala sa o folosesc.este foarte dificil de folosit in unele cazuri dar nu imposibil.Stiu ce vrea sa spuna Roger cand scria ca un caine care lasa la comanda nu e destul de hotarat.multi oameni din lumea cainilor de vanatoare impartasesc opinia asta.iar dresajul unui "LASA" de incredere fara anticipare din partea caineluisi fara sa-i influenteze muscatura este o arta
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2011, 02:09:32 AM »
   Quote
i am really glad that Bob's strong point is to recuperate sport dogs for the reality, this means he can give some very competent advice also regarding the "helper workout" or the "helper behaviour" too..what are the biggest mistakes he usualy has to correct...i think this is maybe the biggest subject, as the helper can make or brake your dog!
Some of the things I have learned to fix as well as prevent are, equipment fixation/not viewing the decoy as his focus, aggression to friendly fire, wanting to "look"(with his head up) in the field, when we need him to track, trying to search(building search) with his eyes and tracking ground disturbances instead of man-scent.
The key to fixing equipment fixation is to fix it first working in prey. You see a lot of people trying to fix it first in defense. After slipping the sleeve, they will place it between the dog and the decoy. The decoy puts a lot of defensive pressure on the dog. He will in most cases shift his focus from the sleeve to the decoy in defense. People think this is good. They say, "the dog is willing to leave the sleeve for the man." Yes, but it is situational and it is in defense of "his sleeve". Notice in many cases the moment the decoy turns and starts to leave, the dogs focus goes back to the sleeve. Like he drove the man away from his true desire and focus "the sleeve". Increasing further his desire for "the sleeve".
The way I like to fix it takes some time. I start by getting the dog to understand the decoy dying. not slipping the equipment any more but by gradually and with patients lifting the dog off the dead decoy. I use this opportunity to praise the dog on the bite, letting him counter and shake while the decoy is dying with much praise. Lifting and letting him back down to counter and shake. Each time I hold up longer(also a good work out for the handler,lol) until finally the dog has to let go. In the next step I will go to some run away bites with a soft sleeve or a suite jacket and a hidden sleeve. I often do this at the end of a track, (I try to work on several things at the same time. There is so much to work on.) When the dog catches the man, bite on the sleeve or suit, I slip it and keep running, putting as much prey movement as I can. The handler gives the send command and encourages the dog to pursue the fleeing/flailing man. If needed the decoy can run in kind of a circle should the dog not seem to want to chase at first, It is funny to see sometimes the dog chasing the decoy with the sleeve in his mouth. Sometimes not dropping it until the last second. I have the handler slowing him a bit with the long line. Eventually the light goes off and the dog drops the dead sleeve to bite the live decoy.
This is followed by a rewarding fight followed by a dying decoy and much praise from the handler. I let him hold this bite for a long time.
After some repetitions most dogs will start dropping it pretty quickly. I feel like this is the best approach because it is the dogs prey drive that makes him want the sleeve in the first place. Prey drive is one of the strongest drives in most dogs. Especially Mals. lol
ma bucur ca punctele forte ale lui bob sunt legate de recuperarea cainilor de sport pentru realitate, asta insemna ca poate sa ofere sfaturi competente referitor la munca ajutorului, sau comportamentul ajutorului..care sunt cele mai mari greseli pe care le corecteaza de obicei..asta cred ca este cel mai mare subiect din timp ce ajutorul iti poate face sau iti poate strica cainele
o parte din lucrurile pe care am invatat sa le previn si sa le corectez sunt:fixarea pe echipament, mutarea cainelui pe om, agresivitatea in cazul impuscaturilor "prietenesti", dorinta de "a se uita"(cu capul sus) in camp, cand avem nevoie sa caute, sa caute prin cladiri cu ochii si sa cu ochii semne pe sol si nu doar mirosuri umane
cheia rezolarii fixatiei pe echipament este sa o rezolv prima data prin prada.sune o gramada de dresori care incearca sa rezolve asta prima data din "aparare".dupa ce lasa maneca  ei incearca sa o plaseze intre caine si ajutor.cainele pune o gramada de presiune defensiva pe caine.El in cele mai dese cazuri isi va schimba atentia de la maneca pe atacul ajutorului.oamenii cred ca asta este bine.si spun"cainele este gata sa renunte la maneca pentru om".Da dar depinde de situatie, iar cainele isi apara maneca lui.De observat ca in multe cazuri ajutorul se intoarce si incepe sa plece, iar cainele iarasi revine la maneca.Ca si cum l-ar fi alungat pe om de la ceea ce de fapt isi doreste el.si asta mareste dorinta cainelui pentru maneca.
Modul meu preferat de lucru necesita mai mult timp.incep prin a face cainele sa inteleaga ca ajutorul trebuie sa moara, nu-i mai las maneca dar fac asta gradual si cu rapdare ridic cainele de pe ajutorul "mort".profit de ocazie sa incurajez cainele pe muscatura, si-l las sa contreze si sa scuture in timp ce ajutorul moare.Prin ridicarea si eliberarea lui pentru a continua lupta, de fiecare data il las mai mult( de asemeni un antrenament bun si pentru handler)pana cand in cele din urma cainele trebuie sa dea drumu.Pasul urmator este sa facem cateva muscaturi din alergare pe un manson moale sau pe o geaca nosmala cu maneca ascunsa.fac asta de obicei la finalul urmei(incerc sa lucrez cateva lucruri in acelasi timp.sunt atat de multe).Cand cainele prinde omul, musca pe maneca sau pe costum, o las sa cada si continui sa fug, bag "prada" cat de multa pot.conductorul da comanda de trimitere inainte si incurajeaza cainele sa urmareasca omul ce alearga.La nevoie ajutorul va fugi chiar si intr-un fel de cerc in cazul in care la inceput cainele nu vrea sa-l urmareasca, e amuzant sa vezi uneori cainele interesat sa prinda ajutorul , in timp ce are maneca in gura.uneori fara sa o lasa din gura pana in ultima secunda.Handlerul il v-a incetini putin folosind lesa lunga.Eventual lumina se stinge si cainele lasa maneca moarta in schimbul ajutorului viu.[/b]
asta este urmata de o lupta de recompensare a ajutorului care "moare" si multa incurajare din partea conductorului.Il las sa mentina muscatura o perioada lunga.Dupa cateva repetari vor renunta destul de repede.cred ca asta este cea mai buna abordare pentru ca tocmai instinctul de prada al cainelui il determina in prima faza sa-si doreasca mansonul.Prada este un instinct foarte important la majoritatea cainilor, in special malinois.
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #147 on: February 04, 2011, 02:15:43 AM »
Kangdanlin

regarding to bite development, i've seen in a site, a police helper describing his way of doing things...he started the dog in prey (chasing and the first bite of the helper), and then he would work the dog only in defense...muzzle...when the dog worked good in defense he would start the fighting drive development,by working the dog in prey again(atac the running decoy from behind) ..i would like to know what you think about this

This, in my opinion, is basically correct, with one exception. And may be it is wording thing. But I would have a hard time saying I ever truly work a dog only in defense. Even when I am working a dog in defense, some prey stimulation is thrown in there if only for moments at a time.
By the same token, when ai am working a dog in prey there are often "moments" that the stimulation I am giving is defense.
referitor la etapele dezvoltarii muscaturii am vazut pe un site , descrierea unui politist in felul urmator:  incepea lucrul in prada(vanatoarea si prima muscatura a ajutorului), apoi lucra cainele numai in APARARE....lucrul cu botnita...cand cainele lucra bine in APARARE, incepea etapa dezvoltarii instinctului de lupta, prin lucrul cainelui din nou in prada(atacul de la spate al infractorului ce alearga), as vrea sa stiu cum vezi tu lucrurile 


parerea mea este ca lucreaza in principiu corect, cu o exceptie.Si probabil e o chestie de exprimare.Dar nu pot sa spun ca lucrez vreodata cainele numai in APARARE.Chiar si cand il lucrez in APARARE, mai arunc ici colo cateva miscari pentru stimularea instinctului de prada, cateva secunde. si la fel se intampla si in lucrul instinctului de prada, mai introduc ici colo momente stresante de APARARE.
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #148 on: February 04, 2011, 02:19:15 AM »
Yes prey drive is the strongest, especially in Mals..
Where and when does fight drive come into play ?
Can we say that a high fight drive K9 will focus on Man and naturally let go of sleeve and pursue 'helper'.
So would it be fair to say that 'fight drive' is what we're after, rather than prey drive ?
da , prada este un instinct puternic, in special la malinois..
cand si unde intra in actiune instinctul de lupta?
putem spune ca un instinct de lupta, il va dirija spre om, si in mod natural va renunta la maneca si va ataca omul?
Deci putem spune ca de fapt "instinctul de lupta" este ceea ce dorim sa obtinem, si nu instinctul de prada?
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2011, 02:47:09 AM »
This is the statement that we believe and we do a lot this type of training once the said dog "pass" through the level of bite-work, apart from muzzle-work, we do a lot of so-called civil agitation too.  Once in the blue-moon, we hit hard on the dogs!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIAToNDppPI[/youtube]
agitarea

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgieTN7NwA0[/youtube]
lucrul cu botnita
I may have my own view when come to dog-working and many of the times, I have difficulties in expressing myself to have a proper description.  Let me see if I can at least drop to share some later.  Reading and learning from someone else is always something that I always do  ;) :cool:  :lol:  
atacul in botnita reprezinta in opinia mea cel mai bun exercitiu pentru un caine de strada.
aceata este declaratia pe care o credem si noi ,si facem mult antrenament de tipul acesta odata ce cainele a trecut de un anumit nivel de agresivitate, separat de lucrul cu botnita, facem foarte multa "agitatie civila".Odata ajunsi in "luna -albastra" , "lovim tare in caini"( scuze de traducerea defectuasa a ultimei propozitii..mai pe romaneste cred ca vrea sa spuna ca odata ce au pus bazele cat de cat , apoi baga munca la modul intens)

Poate ca am si eu parerile mele referitor la lucrul cu cainii , dar am dificultati in a ma exprima mai bine.Sper sa pot arata o mostra putin mai tarziu.citind si invatand de la altii este un lucru pe care-l fac tot timpul ;) :cool:  :lol:  
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill