Hard dog or hard handler? (Caine dur sau handler dur?)

[Dia_Boca]

I need to see the video before I comment any further, but I agree that on the "real" field you need a dog that can do the job; sport is not 'real' action.. is sport! in sport there are rules, no rules out on the street!!

When I have my first GSD, Ben, during bitework he was kicked in the chest and shoulders.. actually quite hard, back then I did not know how things were done.. I just knew combat meant combat.. so I trained my dog in that spirit. The result - in his life of a guard dog, two individuals ended up in hospital, plus protected both my sisters a few times.
But like I said, I need to see the video before I say more..

I understand what it means to train for "real action", as you said Ben was "kicked in the chest and shoulders", but not by you (i guess)... in this video I don't understand why the handler hits the dog to correct or attract his attention, every 2 steps... i've only seen the begining of the clip...

I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...

[zimbris]

I understand what it means to train for "real action", as you said Ben was "kicked in the chest and shoulders", but not by you (i guess)... in this video I don't understand why the handler hits the dog to correct or atrct his attention, every 2 steps... i've only seen the begining of the clip...

I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...

..like I said, I need to see the video before I comment any more..  

[zimbris]

Ok.. I watched the video. regardless of the number of years of experience of the trainer, I honestly consider some of the elements involved, to be unnecesary and in fact, if I am honest all the way, I find them annoying. Training a dog for hard core action and more violent situations doesn't mean turning the dog into a pumpkin you can slap in order to "correct". I did not watch the video all the way through, it didn't take me long to understand what was going on. Also, I believe going for that sort of training, you (the trainer) make room for conflict in the dog's mind. All in all, at the end of the day, the service dog is .. a dog, not a lifeless tool. So.. to bring my own conclusion to this.. I believe in hard correction (leash jerking and things like that) but what's with the slaping and hitting..... the fact that a dog is hard enough to take that, is no excuse for applying those methods. With all the technics available (well ok.. not too many) why go for that...?...
So.. that's my opinion on it... But hey, it's good to talk about these things, we can learn some new stuff out of all this.


Ok.. am urmarit clipul. Indiferent de cati ani de experienta o avea dresorul respectiv, sincer consider unele elemente in ceea ce am vazut, ca nefiind necesare si, daca sunt sincer pana la capat, as spune ca sunt chiar enervante. Sa pregatesti un caine pt situatii mai dure si mai violente nu cred ca inseamna sa-l transformi intr-un dovleac si sa-l plesnesti asa ca sa-l "corectezi". Nu am urmarit clipul pana la capat, nu mi-a luat mult sa inteleg ce se intampla acolo. Mai cred ca folosind o asa metoda de 'dresaj', faci loc conflictului in mintea cainelui. Toate ca toate dar pana la urma un caine de serviciu e.. un caine de serviciu, nu o unealta fara viata. Deci.. sa vin cu propria mea concluzie.. eu cred in corectii mai dure (zmucituri din lesa de corectie si lucruri de genul) dar de ce plesnitul si lovitul.... faptul ca e un caine capabil sa accepte astfel de dresaj, nu este o scuza pt a se folosi metodele respective. Tinand cont de metodele existente (ok, nu f multe..) de ce sa recurgi tocmai la asa ceva....?
Deci.. asta e ceea ce cred eu.. dar hei, e bine sa discutam despre astfel de lucruri, mai putem invata cate ceva.

[zimbris]

I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...

I know what you mean, you need a strong hand and a sharp mind to handle a strong / sharp dog, but still I wouldn't "slap" the dog like that.Strong leash jerks are "old school" and still work with hard dogs, so I am ok with that.

[zimbris]

Sunt curios sa aud opinia lui Dux.. astept sa se intoarca de la Sibiu.

I am curious to hear what Dux has to say.. waiting for him to return from Sibiu.

[Man Stopper]

Its a fine line between pleasure and pain!!! But in saying this we obviously might have to take into consideration that this guy is a professional in what he does, and has the ability to read the dog..When we talk about Special Forces/Riot Police we all i imagine would want our (partner) K9, to be ready and willing to what may eventuate. A dog that can take punishment has it genetically and not through training, so IMO you would not need this method of training.!!!!

distanta dintre placere si durere e mica!!! Dar spunand asta, trebuie sa luam in considerare ca tipul asta e profesionist in ceea ce face si are abilitatea de a 'citi' cainele.. Cand e vorba de Forte Speciale / Politie (revolte) cu toti ne imaginam ca e nevoie de un partener cainin, gata sa faca fata indiferent de provocari. Un caine care poate indura tratament mai dur, o face pt ca e in gena, nu prin dresaj, deci in opinia mea nu e nevoie de astfel de antrenament!!!

[zimbris]

A dog that can take punishment has it genetically and not through training, so IMO you would not need this method of training.!!!!

well said!

[shamankin6]

Hello lists,

I saw this video clip a few months ago and still keep a copy on that <wink>.  The dog that u saw in the video clip is definitely a hard dog that ACCEPT hard correction that wont fail it drives.  The owner of this dog is a Police Dog Handler that has many years experience in handling this type of dogs!

This dog in this video was just merely a few sections of training (as per the owner)!  Months later, he did well not only on his job but also in the competition!

When come to the confront of bad guy that do not scare of police dog, one really need this type of dog to iron the issue and get the bad guy apprehend!

It is true that this video clip may affect someone else but to this group of peoples, they went through the hard-stuff and they know what they are going into apart from well ahead in reading dog for pushing to the maximum!

I am expressing my comment, and I have no problem on this when one know the capabilities!  Both of them are hard anyway <wink>!

Peace.


Salutare,
Am vazut clipul respectiv cu ceva timp in urma si am pastrat o copie

peace

Its so nice to see you also here sir Leo!  Howdy?

anyway, i know we both know the guy who share this video. same thing in mind goes..but i can't imagine such "high" frequency correction keep applying by the handler. i know this guys work as K9 handlers and most of them are K9 police in fact. im also thinking the dog been used to it and able to adapt such "pattern" of correction by his handler.


Ron

[shamankin6]

well.. wouldn't that man be upset by this...? He obviously set the video to "private" for a reason...

your right there Dan! Hahahah! pretty sure its gonna be a HOT HOT HOT discussion just in case.


Ron

[shamankin6]

well.. wouldn't that man be upset by this...? He obviously set the video to "private" for a reason...

Yeah ... guess I will just respect the owner's decision then although I strongly believe that he just doesnt want those who follow blindly  :|


Ron

[shamankin6]

Training a dog for hard core action and more violent situations doesn't mean turning the dog into a pumpkin you can slap in order to "correct".

honestly, you made me laugh on this statement. but its true!


Ron

[Leo Pui]

Its so nice to see you also here sir Leo!
Different chief have different ways of cooking method as long as the end result come out good ...  

[dux]

Am vazut clipul acum.aici este vorba de un caine foarte bun si un dresor foarte prost. personal, daca as avea putere acesti oameni i-as face sa nu mai dreseze in viata lor. sunt de acord cu fermitatea in dresaj acolo unde este cazul dar sub nici o forma nu sunt de acord sa transformi sesiunea de lucru intr-o sesiune de bataie a cainelui.

I just watched the clip. this is the case of a good dog and a very bad trainer. personally, if I had the power to do what i wanted, I would make sure these 'trainers' would never be allowed to train dogs. I am for toughness in training where that is needed but under no conditions will I agree to turn the training session into a "hit the dog" session.

[Santos]

am vazut si eu clipul si nu prea am inteles ce facea dresorul Sunt metode mult mai bune de a corecta un caine si cu un randament mai mare Acolo dresorul parca era un incepator cainele nici nu intelegea de ce il bate.In exercitiu respectiv  era mai utila zgarda cu tepi

I also watched the video and I couldn't understand what the trainer was trying to achieve. There are better ways to correct the dog and with greater results. In this particular case it seems as if the handler was a beginner he didn't know himself why he was bitting the dog up like that. In that specific exercise the classic power collar would have done the job.

[zimbris]

Ma bucur ca ati postat amandoi, asteptam parerile unor dresori - mai ales tinand cont de faptul ca si voi sunteti PENTRU caini mai duri.

I am glad both of you commented, I was waiting for the views of trainers such as yourselves - especially kn owing that you are FOR tough dogs.