Socialization / Socializarea

[Man Stopper]

With socialization i feel even though you might want to strengthen the dogs confidence, it could back fire and have a negative effect...Especially living in the city, you would want to gradually build the introduction of the hussle and bustle of city noise pollution.. I personally dont see the point of putting the dog in too many different situations, as this would scar and leave a bad impression for life.. Confident pups only need several trips to a market or cafe strip,busy city trams, trains, buses and minimal 'human interaction' with the public,in the first 7 months.. Too much of anything is no good, especially in raising young prospect dogs for security, which is what i am refering to... A confident and alert pup would not need too many sessions in crossing an elevated bridge or viewing planes taking off, for example.. Keeping the fire burning is important and the aim should be to avoid irrelevant training methods, which dont really have any part in day to day life.. For example training a pup to bite on 500 plastic bottles in a box.. Whats the point as this could have more of a negative effect then positive i believe..
Less is MORE..


In privinta socializarii eu cred ca, desi se doreste intarirea increderii de sine a cainelui, aceasta ar putea avea ceva efecte secundare... mai ales cand locuiesti la oras, vrei sa introduci treptat cainele agitatiilor tipice orasului... Personal nu vad de ce este necesar sa duci cainele in f multe situatii diferite, cand asa ceva ar putea lasa amprente mai putin dorite, pt restul vietii. Cateii stabili au nevoie doar de o serie de drumuri pana la cafenea sau magazin, prin tramvaie aglomerate, trenuri, autobuzuri si contact cu oamenii minimalizat, in primele 7 luni de viata... Prea mult din toate nu e neaparat bun, mai ales in cazul cresterii unor caini tineri pt protectie, lucru la care fac referire... Un catel increzator si vigilent nu va avea nevoie de prea multe sedinte de traversat un anume pod, sau observarea unor avioane in decolare, de exemplu... Sa pastrezi focul viu e important iar scopul ar trebui sa fie evitarea unor metode de dresaj irelevante, care nu ajuta cu nimic in contextul vietii de zi cu zi... De exemplu sa inveti un catel sa muste 500 de cutii de plastic intr-o cutie.. care e scopul in asta, avand in vedere ca poate avea mai mult un efect negativ, cel putin asa cred eu...

[zimbris]

I am a great believer in socialization. I don't think the young dog should be taken through too many pressure stages, just gradually, in time, be taken to a number of different places, jut to for testing. Once you see the dog got its confidence in place, no point in keeping doing that unless your lifestyle takes you to such places and you want to take the dog with you. The thing is, many have overlooked this aspect and you end up breeding dogs that don't do too well under specific pressures and you may not even be aware of it...

Eu cred in importanta socializarii. Nu cred ca un caine tanar trebuie trecut prin prea multe etape cu presiuni diferite ci doar ca trebuie dus treptat, in diferite locuri, doar pt a-i analiza temperamentul. O data ce vezi ca el este increzator, echilibrat, nu are rost sa insisti in privinta asta decat daca ai un stil de viata care te poarta in multe locuri si vrei sa ai cainele cu tine. Dar treaba e ca multi au ignorat acest aspect si au crescut caini care nu se descurcau bine in anumite situatii, fara nici macar sa stie.

[zimbris]

You know Reg...
I don't think there is a standard way to socialize the dog, I think one really needs to connect with the dog and look for those signals that tell him improvement is needed. With some pups you notice immediately that they are really confident no matter what and not much work on that end is required. But with other pups it's a longer process, in which you gradually help the dog gain that confidence.
I used to take Ben with me EVERYWHERE, not because of socializing (I wasn't even aware of this aspect back then) but simply because I wanted to have my dog with me almost at all times. And believe me he was really confident.

Stii Reg,
Nu cred ca exista un model standard de a socializa un caine tanar, ci mai degraba cred ca omul trebuie sa se cnecteze cu cainele si sa caute acele semnale care sa-i transmita unde anume e nevoie de imbunatatire. In unele cazuri se observa relativ repede ca patrupedul este increzator indiferent de circumstante. Dar in cazul altor catei, este nevoie de ceva mai mult timp, de un  proces treptat prin care sa i se cladeasca echilibrul, increderea.
Obisnuiam sa merg cu Ben aproape PESTE TOT, din motiv ca vroiam sa fie cu mine cat mai des (nu pt ca vroiam sa-l socializez, nici nu eram informat cu privire la aspectul asta pe atunci). Si crede-ma ca era un caine foare increzator.

[dux]

socializarea reprezinta temelia dresajului.nu trebuie sa confundam socializarea cu predresajul.si aici ,fara discutie, ca trebuie sa respectam anumite etape si anumite,,dozari''.mai intai trebuie sa mergi cu catelul in zone cu factori excitanti mai usori iar mai apoi sa mergem in zone cu factori mai puternici.
este gresita ideea ca un caine devine mai putin eficient in protectie reala daca este socializat prea mult.eficienta in aceasta munca depinde foarte mult de alte ingrediente.duritate,teritorialitate,independenta,agresivitate naturala si bineinteles dresaj.
cand un caine are aceste elemente va fi foarte bun in paza chiar daca parcurge un program frecvent si constant de socializare.
sa nu confundam ,,obisnuirea cu oamenii'' cu socializarea 100%.
obisnuirea cu oamenii reprezinta doar un segment din socializare.socializarea,,in totalitate'' inseamna obisnuirea cainelui cu tot ce inseamna ,,altceva'' decat ofera curtea casei sau zona unde-l plimb.doar in strada gasesti tot ceea ce -ti trebuie sa-ti inveti cainele cu ,,noul''.zgomote diverse,obiecte diverse(stationare sau in miscare la diferite viteze),oameni de diferite marimi si in diferite pozitii ale corpului etc. etc. etc.
din practica va spun ca am vazut caini foarte duri ,buni de paza si care erau scosi pe strada in mod frecvent.chiar eu l-am avut pe Rex.
as putea spune ca un caine tinut izolat va fi in mare dezavantaj in cazul unei situatii reale de protectie deoarece s-ar putea ca in timpul confruntarii sa apara un zgomot,un obiect etc.ce va reprezenta ceva total nou pentru caine ,ceea ce-l va face sa dea inapoi sau in cel mai fericit caz sa aiva o mica ezitare.ezitare ce poate fi speculata de agresor si-i va crea probleme cainelui.

Socialization is the very foundation of training. Let us not confuse socialization for pre-training. Surely when it comes to pre-training there are stages to follow as well. At first you have to take the pup through lower pressure factors and gradually build towards higher pressure conditions.
It is wrong to believe that a dog that is very socialized will be a less effective real guarding dog. Eficiency, in this case, is rooted in other factors; toughness, territoriality, independence, natural agression and of course, training.
When a dog has all these in place it will be a very good protection dog even when undergoing a continuous and frequent socialization.
Let's not mistake socialization for "contact with people" alone.
being around people is but one piece of the bigger picture. Total socializations consists of all those representing "something else" to the dog, other then the backyard or the area where he goes out for a walk with the owner. The best way to introduce the dog to the "new" is out on the street. Different sounds, different shapes / objects (stationing or moving at different speeds) peeople of different statures doing different things etc etc. Out of practice I will tell you I have seen many a hard dog, which were taken out on the streets frequently. I have done that myself with Rex.
I want to add that a dog being kept isolated will be dissadvantaged when dealing with a real guarding situation as during the confrontation new sounds may be involved or a new item / object, an element of the "new" to the dog which will cause the dog to maybe back off or in a happier situation to hesitate. But that hesitation could be scanned by the aggressor who will maybe capitalize on that.

[Man Stopper]

In general i think that socializing is a good time to bond with the young dog, especially when in new locations/environments.. Its young and curious and at times may look for re assurance from a loud bang for example or  strange moving vehicles..Have made the mistake in the past in trying to settle the dog down with the words "good' or its 'OK', as i was a beginner and didnt have a clue about any training..These days well i know to ignore the dog if it shows any signs of freaking out, from a thunder sounds for example..

[Man Stopper]

If a young pup is defensive at an early age [16-24 WEEKS] barks/jumps at people, how would you deal with the socializing..
(a) Correct the pup for barking and leaping forward
(b) Firmly lead your pup away without saying nothing
(c) Give some kind of command & praise.

[Bogdan]

Depend's on what you need from the dog .

[zimbris]

I guess it depends what type of dog you want to have in the long run, like Bogdan said. Desa is doing that sometimes, she keeps some people away from me, particularly when within walls or on a small property. I don't praise her, I just let her do her thing; if the people want to speak to me, I pull her towards my thigh. However, if she does that for no reason on regular basis, I do correct her. So far, like I said, she has only done that in specific situation and I actually liked that.

[Man Stopper]

If you correct the dog over and over again,would you lose some of the hardness of the dog when it comes to 'real' protection training..??
What i heard many years back, was to let the dog basically do anything he wants so his confidence is consistently high.. I must admit that i raised my dog with very little correction,it would of been of no benefit i felt, as he was a terror from the start... If its a dominant dog who is constintly testing you and pushing your buttons, it is pretty difficult for a first timer..

Daca tot corectezi cainele din nou si din nou, e oare posibil sa se piarda din duritatea cainelui, atunci cand vrei sa-l pregatesti pt paza reala..??
Ceea ce am auzit cu ani in urma era sa las cainele sa faca absolut tot ce vrea sa sa-i creasca increderea tot timpul... recunosc ca mi-am crescut cainele cu foarte putine corectari, simteam ca nu erau de folos, din moment ce el a fost o 'teroare' de la bun inceput... este destul de delicata treaba pt un incepator, daca animalul din lesa este unul dominant, care continua sa te incerce..

[zimbris]

Strong corrections won't alter the temperament of a good, hard dog. A good dog can take hard corrections when undergoing obedience training too, it all goes back to genetics. But you do have to let the dog know who the boss is - especially when it comes to a hard dog!

Corectiile puternice nu vor afecta temperamentul unui caine dur, bun. Un caine cu adevarat bun va suporta bine si corectiile puternice din timpul dresajului de disciplina, toate se intorc la aspectul genetic. Dar e necesar sa lasi cainele sa stie cine e sef - mai ales in cazul cainilor duri!

[Bogdan]

I can brake down any young dog. I doit once and i'm capable to doit twice. The teory with strong dog is for women.
I have made mistakes with this young dog because  she was very hard to handle, she was and she is a destroyer. Is imposible to handle such dog with easy metod's.
I will not repet this method (force) on my dogs. This is totaly wrong for a dog in a family but in particular, with this female, she is still trying to be number one in the pack so hard method was usefull for me in order to keep order between my dogs. My dogs knows that no mean no else i will bring my fisical "no".

[zimbris]

I can brake down any young dog. I doit once and i'm capable to doit twice. The teory with strong dog is for women.

spune te rog si in romaneste ca nu sunt sigur ca inteleg ce spui.

[Bogdan]

Pot supune (fortat) orice caine tanar. Am facut-o odata si o pot face din nou. Teoria ca un canie dur nu poate fi supus pana la distrugerea personalitatii este pentru femei (ele sunt mai sensibile si cu siguranta nu o sa faca cu un caine ce pot eu sa fac)

[zimbris]

Ok, asa este, poti supune (fortat) orice caine TANAR, indiferent de duritatea lui. Corect. Dar aici se discuta in contextul SOCIALIZARII unui caine de real, nu a dobitocirii lui prin supunere fortata. Ca nu mai faci caine de paza din el, faci o gaina. Un caine dur care s-a si maturizat nu-l mai supui tu prin forta.


True, you can (forcefully) break down any YOUNG dog, regardless of its toughness. But here we are talking about SOCIALIZING a dog having real protection in mind, not turning it into a chicken by breaking it down. Then again, you won't be able to do that with a tough dog that has reached adulthood

[Bogdan]

Sunt caini pe care nu o sa-i poti controla niciodata pentru ca au ceva special. Sota si acum dupa toate corectiile administrate daca e la mai mult de 1 m de mine si fara lesa o ia razna bigtime. Si la cat e de mare si puternica nu cred ca imi pot permite sa o la s de capul ei. De asta am spus pe undeva ca am caini care nu ii pot monta cu Greiff pentru ca deja sunt o problema. Nu am nevoie ca stapanii puilor sa aiba 2 probleme.
Daca cineva vrea sa duca un curent de selectie la extrem o poate face foarte usor. Problema e ca avem si niste responsabilitati pentru cainii pe care-i producem, mai ales cand ii vindem unor persoane care vreau sa educe puii intr-un stil mai putin ortodox.