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Dresaj (Training) => Dresajul pentru paza reala (Real protection training) => Topic started by: istvan on February 11, 2013, 09:23:06 AM
Title: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: istvan on February 11, 2013, 09:23:06 AM
E artagaosa la cine e frica, e un caine coleric,dar colericul intra repede in inhibitie.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 11, 2013, 09:25:38 AM
E artagaosa la cine e frica, e un caine coleric,dar colericul intra repede in inhibitie.
Bun... E o afirmatie pertinenta dar va trebui sustinuta. Una la mana, de ce anume tii sa faci afirmatia, banuiesc ca ai vazut cateaua, o cunosti.. Apoi, explica putin in detalii, ce anume vrei sda scoti in evidenta cand spui de colericitate. DAR, daca scopul tau e o rafuiala anume, fa-o te rog pe privat, cu Schwarz si hai sa respectam regulile de buna desfasurare ale forumului.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 11, 2013, 09:25:55 AM
Promit sa o filmez la o sesiune de agitare cum faceti voi, la manson sau costum trebue sa ma ajute cineva.. nu ma pricep! Voi pune cu Hera dinalea. :)
:rockon:
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: istvan on February 11, 2013, 09:35:39 AM
Nu am spus din rea intentie, chiar au probleme de a controla, interesant ca eu am dat mana si la mine e labrador, ne-am intilnit la o expozitie, dar ma deranjeaza faptul ca in caine dominant care din cauza omului reactioneaza coleric latra cand te apropii si dupa aia mucles e prezentat ca un caine de paza. Nu mi se pare corect.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: istvan on February 11, 2013, 09:38:23 AM
Coleric inseamna pentru mine ca are reactii nervoase ,vrea sa intimideze dar cand stimulul se intensifica intra in inhibitie.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 11, 2013, 09:40:12 AM
Nu am spus din rea intentie, chiar au probleme de a controla, interesant ca eu am dat mana si la mine e labrador, ne-am intilnit la o expozitie, dar ma deranjeaza faptul ca in caine dominant care din cauza omului reactioneaza coleric latra cand te apropii si dupa aia mucles e prezentat ca un caine de paza. Nu mi se pare corect.
Aha.. inteleg; e interesanta treaba asta cu colericitatea, ma gandesc si eu la ea pt ca multi confunda un caine bun in paza reala cu un caine coleric si sunt lucruri diferite. S-au suparat MULTI ca am am facut afirmatia asta dar este una pur tehnica, nu personala. Oricum, in timp ne vom cunoaste mai bine si ne vom cunoaste si cainii, ceea ce e super. Rugamintea mea ar fi ca, in topicul Sarei, orice avem de spus sa o facem constructiv si cu respect fatza de caine si proprietar si asa ne vom intelege bine. O filmare cu Sasha va lamuri cateva aspecte, de-aia de ani buni de zile eu tot trambitez pe tema asta, a postatului de clipuri video. Cine are ochi si stie ce sa vada, vede.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Schwarz on February 11, 2013, 09:40:17 AM
Nu am spus din rea intentie, chiar au probleme de a controla, interesant ca eu am dat mana si la mine e labrador, ne-am intilnit la o expozitie, dar ma deranjeaza faptul ca in caine dominant care din cauza omului reactioneaza coleric latra cand te apropii si dupa aia mucles e prezentat ca un caine de paza. Nu mi se pare corect.
Sasha la tine labrador? :)) Eu cred ca te inseli. In nici un caz nu este „mucles”! Cred ca ai uitat ca ai fost la mine in casa si sti cum sta treaba cu ea. Nu ai pus niciodata mana pe ea. De altfel nimeni nu a pus, inafara de Suca, dresorul care a pregatit-o pentru BH.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 11, 2013, 09:41:15 AM
Coleric inseamna pentru mine ca are reactii nervoase ,vrea sa intimideze dar cand stimulul se intensifica intra in inhibitie.
Sunt de acord, am vazut deja un numar marisor de astfel de caini care mi-au fost prezentati drept "caini duri". Mut postarile astea intr-un topic nou la sectiunea dresaj, sa respectam terenul Sashei si implicit a lui Schwarz.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: istvan on February 11, 2013, 09:41:27 AM
Poti intrebi pe BoBo ca era acolo , dar era cu tatal tau.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Schwarz on February 11, 2013, 09:42:25 AM
Filmarile astea sunt de atunci de cand ai vazut-o tu..
Da nu vreu sa continui discutia, credeti ce vreti . Asta nu e agitare, nu e presiune .
Continua discutia, e interesanta. Sunt oameni ca mine care vor sa afle cate una, alta.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Man Stopper on February 14, 2013, 07:59:53 AM
Looks like another interesting topic. Unfortunately cannot translate..!
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 14, 2013, 08:11:39 AM
Basically, some folk mistake a choleric dog for an aggressive dog (natural civil aggression) and that is an interesting topic indeed; I for one see dogs with west blood (full or in part) that seem to display good natural aggression when in fact things come down to the said dog being choleric and nothing more. Choleric and self confidence are two different things.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Man Stopper on February 14, 2013, 04:12:48 PM
Basically, some folk mistake a choleric dog for an aggressive dog (natural civil aggression) and that is an interesting topic indeed; I for one see dogs with west blood (full or in part) that seem to display good natural aggression when in fact things come down to the said dog being choleric and nothing more. Choleric and self confidence are two different things.
Would it be fair to say that a choleric dog would be more suited as a family guard dog, which 99% of the dogs end up . But definantly as a service dog the flight behaviour is inevitable, especially when faced in a 1 on 1situation....! I believe that the majority of dogs are choleric, but are of benefit as a personal protection dog.. I believe it will still react and do some damage, even though it is fear based.. Thanks Dani for brief translation..
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 15, 2013, 02:20:14 AM
I believe it will still react and do some damage, even though it is fear based.. Eu cred ca va reactiona totusi si cauza ceva paguba, desi la baza se afla teama..
I guess from a one dog owner that is good or even preferred as a choleric dog will impress more obviously because of its reaction (loud, ugly, nasty) but from a breeding stand point I don't think that's what I for one want to produce. In a real contact situation the dog will be choleric until it gets its first reality touch, be it in a kick or whatever. Yes a choleric dog will inflict some damage but again, that's until a real threat comes along. But then there is more to say - a choleric dog will be hard to integrate in society and since nowadays we got government bodies "watching over" owners of dogs with bite potential (and you know exactly what I mean, being in AU) I am not so sure a choleric dog is what's needed. Istvan highlighted that a choleric dog displays fearsome attitude until the moment of contact and things change there so.. that brings me to ask, exactly what do we achieve with such a dog..? On a leash, close to the owner/handler that dog could be a true bite machine I guess; live it alone tied to a pole or something and things may change.
Banuiesc ca e de preferata sta pt detinatorul unui caine pt ca un caine coleric va impresiona rapid datorita reactiei ("urat", galagioasa, "rau") dar din punctul de vedere al unui crescator sau cel putin al meu, nu stiu daca asta vreau sa produc. Intr-un conflict real, un astfel de caine va reactiona pana in momentul in care realtatea ii lanseaza o provocare, printr-o lovitura cu piciorul, etc.. Da, un caine coleric va cauza ceva paguba dar pana in momentul aparitiei unei amenintari reale. Si ar mai fi cate ceva de zis - un caine coleric il vei integra mai greu in societate si cum in zilele noastre sunt destui "ochi" guvernamentali care urmaresc ce se intampla cu cainii cu potential agresiv, nu stiu cat de bine gandita e treaba asta cu caini colerici iar tu intelegi f bine asta, acolo in AU. Istvan amintea ca un caine coleric va avea reactie pana cand se ajunge la momentul de conflict real iar asta ma face sa intreb, exact ce anume promovam sau castigam prin asa ceva? Tinut in lesa, aproape de handler/proprietar, un astfel de caine e o arma intradevar, dar lasa-l singur legat undeva si lucrurile s-ar putea sa arate diferit.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Man Stopper on February 15, 2013, 09:13:33 AM
The dogs that we see, which carry on with the loud and looking nasty approach.. How do we determine which dog has the real deal mentality ? Is it minimal hackles raised with high tail carriage, and/or the tone rythym of bark ? Also is a choleric dog a civil dog ?
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: dux on February 15, 2013, 12:07:45 PM
I guess from a one dog owner that is good or even preferred as a choleric dog will impress more obviously because of its reaction (loud, ugly, nasty) but from a breeding stand point I don't think that's what I for one want to produce. In a real contact situation the dog will be choleric until it gets its first reality touch, be it in a kick or whatever. Yes a choleric dog will inflict some damage but again, that's until a real threat comes along. But then there is more to say - a choleric dog will be hard to integrate in society and since nowadays we got government bodies "watching over" owners of dogs with bite potential (and you know exactly what I mean, being in AU) I am not so sure a choleric dog is what's needed. Istvan highlighted that a choleric dog displays fearsome attitude until the moment of contact and things change there so.. that brings me to ask, exactly what do we achieve with such a dog..? On a leash, close to the owner/handler that dog could be a true bite machine I guess; live it alone tied to a pole or something and things may change.
Banuiesc ca e de preferata sta pt detinatorul unui caine pt ca un caine coleric va impresiona rapid datorita reactiei ("urat", galagioasa, "rau") dar din punctul de vedere al unui crescator sau cel putin al meu, nu stiu daca asta vreau sa produc. Intr-un conflict real, un astfel de caine va reactiona pana in momentul in care realtatea ii lanseaza o provocare, printr-o lovitura cu piciorul, etc.. Da, un caine coleric va cauza ceva paguba dar pana in momentul aparitiei unei amenintari reale. Si ar mai fi cate ceva de zis - un caine coleric il vei integra mai greu in societate si cum in zilele noastre sunt destui "ochi" guvernamentali care urmaresc ce se intampla cu cainii cu potential agresiv, nu stiu cat de bine gandita e treaba asta cu caini colerici iar tu intelegi f bine asta, acolo in AU. Istvan amintea ca un caine coleric va avea reactie pana cand se ajunge la momentul de conflict real iar asta ma face sa intreb, exact ce anume promovam sau castigam prin asa ceva? Tinut in lesa, aproape de handler/proprietar, un astfel de caine e o arma intradevar, dar lasa-l singur legat undeva si lucrurile s-ar putea sa arate diferit.
Foarte mult adevar.Rasa a inceput sa se ,,malinoizeze''.Mai ales liniile vestice.
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: ben on February 15, 2013, 02:32:13 PM
How do we determine which dog has the real deal mentality ?
Well this is what I would answer to that question - a dog that has plenty self confidence and will to fight (by that I mean, not "respond" to a threat because it was taught/trained to, but rather understand a real threat for what is is and take the fight to it). Other than that, I prefer a calm dog.
Pai eu cam asta as raspunde la o asemenea intrebare - un caine care are destula incredere de sine si dorinta de lupta (iar prin asta inteleg un caine care sa nu raspunda la o provocare pt ca asa a fost invatat/dresat sa faca, ci un caine care intelege o amenintare pt ceea ce este si e dornic sa duca lupta la punctul de amenintare). In rest, eu unul prefer un caine calm.
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Is it minimal hackles raised with high tail carriage, and/or the tone rythym of bark ?
What do you mean with this question, can you please unpack things a little bit. Nu cred ca inteleg intrebarea, vrei te rog sa dezvolti putin?
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Also is a choleric dog a civil dog ?
I guess you could have a dog that is both civil and choleric but something tells me that, more often than not the choleric dog si not necessarily civil (for what we understand by that term, that is)
Banuiesc ca poti avea unc aine care este si agresiv natural (civil) si coleric dar ceva imi spune ca de cele mai multe ori un caine coleric nu e de fapt "civil".
Title: Re: Agresiv natural sau coleric? / Civil or choleric?
Post by: Man Stopper on February 16, 2013, 06:22:48 PM
Well this is what I would answer to that question - a dog that has plenty self confidence and will to fight (by that I mean, not "respond" to a threat because it was taught/trained to, but rather understand a real threat for what is is and take the fight to it). Other than that, I prefer a calm dog.
Sure a calm dog we consider to be clear headed.. But having a owned an aggressive dog who was not calm: but at the same time would seriously take on , any 1 any time. Onyx was not conditioned to have courage,but rather genetically was very defensive and with NO hesitation would take on the challenge. I can personally see the difference between a dog that thinks (A) Hope my bark scares you OR (B) I'm going to come and bite your ass...!!
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What do you mean with this question, can you please unpack things a little bit. Nu cred ca inteleg intrebarea, vrei te rog sa dezvolti putin?
Dani if we don't visually see any negative body language .: high hair hackles or low tail cariage ect... Would this mean that this dog is not considered to be choleric ?? The pitch of the dogs bark and the look in his eyes would determine the level of confidence the dog has, IMO..
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I guess you could have a dog that is both civil and choleric but something tells me that, more often than not the choleric dog si not necessarily civil (for what we understand by that term, that is)
Banuiesc ca poti avea unc aine care este si agresiv natural (civil) si coleric dar ceva imi spune ca de cele mai multe ori un caine coleric nu e de fapt "civil".