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ZIMBRIS FORUM
Media => Foto & Video => Topic started by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 03:22:58 AM
Title: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 03:22:58 AM
A police dog I was thinking about doing ring sport with. defense of the handler like in french or mondio ring.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 06:43:58 AM
next time you make a video like this, get the lights on!! :grin: :cool: nice dog there.. just to make an off topic comment, I wouldn't do this type of work with a real dog.. it could be risky (for the handler / owner)
Title: Re: control work
Post by: RogerW on February 03, 2011, 07:42:09 AM
LOL, Kilo is as "real" as a dog can get, believe me. It's his job to be real. He just has a lot of control on him.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 08:05:41 AM
I believe you! :rockon: ;) (don't get me wrong, am not judging what takes place in the video) am just saying, I would rather my dog goes for full contact as soon as someone even pretends to have a go at me. It's what reality taught me.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: RogerW on February 03, 2011, 09:02:32 AM
Yes, I know what you mean. Police work is a fine line between "real" dogs, and super control...because of lawsuits.
I dont' worry about lawsuits if someone breaks into my yard or home.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 09:27:33 AM
I dont' worry about lawsuits if someone breaks into my yard or home.
PRECISELY!!!!
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 09:29:23 AM
Dani, If you mean that you should not let someone you think might be a bad guy get that close to you. I would agree. But if you are saying a real dog should not be under that much control, I would have to disagree. In advanced protection training, I believe the dog must trust your judgement, both ways. What I mean by that is if something seems wrong to the dog, with his limited understanding, ( we are suppose to be the smarter member of the team) and I tell the dog no, stand down. He must trust my judgement and stay ready but under control. By the same token If the man looks non-threatening to the dog, but I say you must attack, then he again must trust my judgement and attack. The decoy did nothing to appear as a threat to the dog. he walked up, as someone might on the street to greet me. We shook hands as two people might. Now the fact that he had a bite suit on was a que to the dog but with no sign of aggression from the man and no attack command from me, the dog should continue to heel, sit and down just like I asked him to. If a dog is unsafe in public, being too quick to make his own decisions, then the liability might outweigh just out weigh him as an asset. Then if you noticed, When I sent him, the decoy was not acting aggressive. Again the dog had to take my word for it. Although I must admit this was not true proof of this because the bite suit was a que.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 09:43:53 AM
True story to help make my point. Sometime ago, I was putting the finishing touches on a personal protection dog for a client. We were in a public park in a college town. I was doing off leash obedience and what I call good guy work. Angus and I were taking in the sights and sounds of the park, in complete control and off leash. I had downed him on the side of a field as I was watching some college guys play lacrosse. when suddenly the ball comes rolling out of bounds and towards us. So one of the players comes running towards us, lacrosse stick raised over his shoulder. I knew what Angus would think. Many times mock bad guys had run at us with raised sticks. So, ready to grab his collar if necessary, I reiterated "ous" "platz". The guy ran almost all the way to us, bent down and picked up the ball and said, "hey, hows it going" and ran back on the field. I said, "good plats" "Fuss" and we went on our way.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 09:47:24 AM
Thank you for being so clear about what you communicate - like I was saying, both you and Roger are artists in that respect. ;)
yes I totally agree with what you say, or else it would probably be "mayhem" all the time lol I guess when I say what I say, it is not from the perspective of a trainer, but of one who has gone through some experiences. i think I posted a few stories about that somewhere in the forum. What I want my 'real dog" to be like, is to be ready to charge at anything that comes quickly towards me (which Ben was kind of natively doing anyway) and yes, respond to my command (although many times that would not be a verbal one, but a swift leash pull / jerk). I nearly lost my life to a "surprise" attack and ever since i decided to allow my dog to eat anything that comes close to me faster that the average walking speed. I am of course taking some risks in that but hey, "they" don't really have rules out there, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 09:51:51 AM
oo.. I like that! True stories! redjump Guy wants to show me a shotokan kick to the thigh, Ben watched from a few meters away; guy kicks me in the thigh; guy ends up at the doctor (Ben was too quick and I had no time to "catch" him.
Another one that is more related to my previous post - I was out shopping for some soda, a friend approaches and salutes me by shouting from about 7 meters away (walking towards me to shake my hand - Romanian custom I guess) and also raised an empty plastic bottle in the air - Ben (on leash) reacted so nasty a bunch of people gathered within moments thinking someone was about to be slained :laugh: they asked me to walk away from there :grin: I did not tell Ben off afterwards, as he did exactly what I expected him to do.
True stories - don't get me started :grin:
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 10:12:38 AM
Quote
What I want my 'real dog" to be like, is to be ready to charge at anything that comes quickly towards me (which Ben was kind of natively doing anyway) and yes, respond to my command (although many times that would not be a verbal one, but a swift leash pull / jerk). I nearly lost my life to a "surprise" attack and ever since i decided to allow my dog to eat anything that comes close to me faster that the average walking speed. I am of course taking some risks in that but hey, "they" don't really have rules out there, if you know what I mean.
Ones training should produce a dog the way that trainer/handler wants a dog to perform. The important thing is knowing how to safely work that dog. No matter how we train the dog, as his handler, we must be his handler every moment the dog is out with us.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 10:17:27 AM
true!
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 10:17:44 AM
Guy wants to show me a shotokan kick to the thigh, Ben watched from a few meters away; guy kicks me in the thigh; guy ends up at the doctor (Ben was too quick and I had no time to "catch" him.
Another one that is more related to my previous post - I was out shopping for some soda, a friend approaches and salutes me by shouting from about 7 meters away (walking towards me to shake my hand - Romanian custom I guess) and also raised an empty plastic bottle in the air - Ben (on leash) reacted so nasty a bunch of people gathered within moments thinking someone was about to be slained they asked me to walk away from there I did not tell Ben off afterwards, as he did exactly what I expected him to do.
:lol: Funny story, and I agree with not fussing at the dog. Based on what you expect from your dogs, I probably would have given him a little pad on the side as we walked off. ;)
Title: Re: control work
Post by: zimbris on February 03, 2011, 10:25:38 AM
Bob, just to make it easy for others to "separate" the posts, just highlight / select the part that is quoted and click on the I (italicized) icon (cones after the B one)
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 03, 2011, 10:36:42 AM
how old is that dog?..how much training?
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 03, 2011, 10:52:27 AM
Kangdanlin, When we taped that session he would have been about 3 years of age. He had had a ton of training. I raised him from a puppy and trained with him very regularly until he was about 2yrs. I was tuning him up for the department and had asked them if I could run him through a mondio ring 1. Because there was going to be one close to where i lived and I did not have a mature dog at that time that I had not already sold. He was already on the with the department who purchased him, had certified in patrol as well as narcotics detection.
kangdanlin, cand am inregistrat sedinta respectiva avea cam 3 ani. A trecut prin f multe sedinte de antrenament pana atunci. L-am crescut de cand era catel si l-am antrenat in mod regulat pana pe la 2 ani. Il antrenam conform asteptarilor departamentului si le-am cerut voie sa concurez cu el la Mondioring 1. pt ca un astfel de concurs urma sa se desfasoare aproape de unde locuiam eu si nu aveam un caine matur la vremea respectiva pe care sa nu-l fi vandut. El era deja cu departamentul care il cumparase, era pregatit pt patrula si urma.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobo70 on February 03, 2011, 01:43:06 PM
Baieti, nu ar fi rau daca v-ati face putin timp si ati traduce postarile lui Bob cel putin.... Nu as vrea sa dau o interpretare gresita spuselor lui din cauza slabelor cunostinte de limba engleza. Omul chiar stie ce vorbeste si spune lucruri foarte interesante. Multumim. :)
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 12:15:20 AM
I believe you! :rockon: ;) (don't get me wrong, am not judging what takes place in the video) am just saying, I would rather my dog goes for full contact as soon as someone even pretends to have a go at me. It's what reality taught me.
te cred :rockon: ;)(nu ma intelege gresit, nu judec ceea ce se intampla in clip)spuneam doar ca as prefera sa am un caine cae merge full contact imediat cand cineva schiteaza macar un gest catre mine.e ceea ce realitatea m-a invatat
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 12:17:07 AM
Dani, If you mean that you should not let someone you think might be a bad guy get that close to you. I would agree. But if you are saying a real dog should not be under that much control, I would have to disagree. In advanced protection training, I believe the dog must trust your judgement, both ways. What I mean by that is if something seems wrong to the dog, with his limited understanding, ( we are suppose to be the smarter member of the team) and I tell the dog no, stand down. He must trust my judgement and stay ready but under control. By the same token If the man looks non-threatening to the dog, but I say you must attack, then he again must trust my judgement and attack. The decoy did nothing to appear as a threat to the dog. he walked up, as someone might on the street to greet me. We shook hands as two people might. Now the fact that he had a bite suit on was a que to the dog but with no sign of aggression from the man and no attack command from me, the dog should continue to heel, sit and down just like I asked him to. If a dog is unsafe in public, being too quick to make his own decisions, then the liability might outweigh just out weigh him as an asset. Then if you noticed, When I sent him, the decoy was not acting aggressive. Again the dog had to take my word for it. Although I must admit this was not true proof of this because the bite suit was a que.
Dani, daca vroiai sa spui ca nu trebuie sa lasi pe cineva suspect sa se apropie de tine, sunt de acord.Dar daca spui ca un caine de realitate n-ar trebui sa fie sub un control asa de mare,nu sunt de acord.In dresajul avansat de protectie, cred ca trebuie sa ai un caine care sa aiba incredere in decizia ta, in ambele sensuri.Ce vreau sa spun cu asta este ca, daca cineva ii pare suspect cainelui, cu intelegerea lui limitata,(noi ar trebui sa fin partea inteligenta a echipei), ii dau comanda"NU", nu-i voie.el trebuie sa aiba incredere in judecata mea si sa ramana pregatit, dar cub control.Si invers, daca un om pare inofensiv pentru caine si eu ii spun sa-l atace,cainele trebuie sa aiba incredere in mine si sa atace.Ajutorul, nu a facut vreun gest amenintatorpentru caine,s-a apropiat ca orice persoana pe strada si m-a salutat.Ne-am strans mainile ca oricare altii.Acuma faptul ca el avea costumul pe el a fost un indicator pentru caine, dar cu nici un gest amenintator de la om si nici o comanda de atac din partea mea, cainele ar trebui sa stea la picior, Sezi sau culcat exact cum i-am cerut eu. Daca un caine nu este sigur in public, fiind prea rapid in a lua propriile decizii,atunci lucrul asta este o problema.apoi daca ai observat, cand il trimit inainte, ajutorul nu se comporta agresiv.Iarasi cainele a trebuit sa aiba incredere in mine.Desi trebuie sa admit, asta nu dovedeste prea multe pentru ca tipul avea deja costumul de protectie.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 12:45:36 AM
True story to help make my point. Sometime ago, I was putting the finishing touches on a personal protection dog for a client. We were in a public park in a college town. I was doing off leash obedience and what I call good guy work. Angus and I were taking in the sights and sounds of the park, in complete control and off leash. I had downed him on the side of a field as I was watching some college guys play lacrosse. when suddenly the ball comes rolling out of bounds and towards us. So one of the players comes running towards us, lacrosse stick raised over his shoulder. I knew what Angus would think. Many times mock bad guys had run at us with raised sticks. So, ready to grab his collar if necessary, I reiterated "ous" "platz". The guy ran almost all the way to us, bent down and picked up the ball and said, "hey, hows it going" and ran back on the field. I said, "good plats" "Fuss" and we went on our way.
poveste adevarata, acum ceva timp tocmai terminam dresajul unui caine de paza si protectie personala pentru un client.Eram intr-un parc public.Cainele liber lucra disciplina si ceea ce eu numesc lucru cu o persoana buna.angus si eu eram atenti la privelistea si zgomotele din parc, in control complet la liber.L-am pus in "culcat" intr-o parte a campului in timp ce ma uitam la niste studenti cum joaca lacrosse.Cand deodata mingea sare peste terenul de joc pana aproape de noi.si unul dintre jucatori vine alergand spre noi, cu bata de lacrosse deaupra umarului.Stiam ce poate sa fie in mintea lui Angus.de multe ori oameni pretins amenintatori au venit spre noi cu bata deasupra capului.Si pregatit sa-l prind de zgarda ,in caz de nevoie, i-am dat comanda OUS, PLATZ.Tipul a fugit aproape tot drumul pana la noi, s-a aplecat a luat mingea si a zis:Hey, ce mai faceti..ai a fugit inapoi.I-am zis "bun platz" ,"fuss" si am plecat in treburile noastre
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 12:51:10 AM
Ones training should produce a dog the way that trainer/handler wants a dog to perform. The important thing is knowing how to safely work that dog. No matter how we train the dog, as his handler, we must be his handler every moment the dog is out with us.
Dresajul ar trebui sa produca exact cainele pe care-l doreste dresorul.Lucrul important este sa stii cum sa lucrezi cainele respectiv intr-un mod sigur.Indiferent cum dresezi cainele, ca si dresor/stapan trebuie sa fim in control in fiecare moment cand suntem cu cainele.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 12:57:01 AM
oo.. I like that! True stories! redjump Guy wants to show me a shotokan kick to the thigh, Ben watched from a few meters away; guy kicks me in the thigh; guy ends up at the doctor (Ben was too quick and I had no time to "catch" him.
Another one that is more related to my previous post - I was out shopping for some soda, a friend approaches and salutes me by shouting from about 7 meters away (walking towards me to shake my hand - Romanian custom I guess) and also raised an empty plastic bottle in the air - Ben (on leash) reacted so nasty a bunch of people gathered within moments thinking someone was about to be slained :laugh: they asked me to walk away from there :grin: I did not tell Ben off afterwards, as he did exactly what I expected him to do.
True stories - don't get me started :grin:
poveste adevarata un tip vrea sa-mi arate o lovitura de shotokan pe coapsa, Ben privea de la cativa metri;tipul ma loveste pe coapsa;tipul ajunge la spital(Ben a fost prea rapid si nu am avut timp sa-l "prind")
Alta care are mai multa legatura cu postarea anterioara- eram la un suc si un prieten se apropie si ma saluta strigand de la vreo 7 metri distanta(in timp ce venea spre mine sa-mi stranga mana- obicei romanesc presupun)si eu am ridicat paharul de plastic in sus- ben(in lesa) a reactionat asa de tare incat incepeau sa se adune lumea crezand ca cineva va fi terminat :laugh: m-au rugat sa plec de acolo cu cainele :grin: nu l-am certat pe Ben, a facut exact ceea ce vroiam de la el.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: Santos on February 04, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
si eu sunt de parere ca trebuie sa ai un control asupra cainelui si cred ca odata cu atacul trebuie sa invete sa lase la comanda Am sa filmez saptamana ce urmeaza cainii care sunt in clip cum au evoluat
Title: Re: control work
Post by: kangdanlin on February 04, 2011, 08:29:51 AM
si eu sunt de parere ca trebuie sa ai un control asupra cainelui si cred ca odata cu atacul trebuie sa invete sa lase la comanda Am sa filmez saptamana ce urmeaza cainii care sunt in clip cum au evoluat
i also think the dog should be under control and that once with learning to attack the dog should also learn to release on command.i will film next week the evolution of the dogs i already posted
Title: Re: control work
Post by: Man Stopper on February 05, 2011, 12:16:39 AM
Ones training should produce a dog the way that trainer/handler wants a dog to perform. The important thing is knowing how to safely work that dog. No matter how we train the dog, as his handler, we must be his handler every moment the dog is out with us.
Very well said bobdog, unfortunately irresponsible owners in the past, have made it difficult to work/breed dogs for Security. Especially here in Australia..
Title: Re: control work
Post by: bobdog on February 06, 2011, 05:43:30 AM
MS In some ways the same could be said in the USA. That is why I like the idea of a relatively social dog that one would not necessarily think by just watching him with his owner was protection trained at all. Then if needed, like I have told clients, If you feel your life is in danger, survive and worry about the B.S. later.
Title: Re: control work
Post by: Leo Pui on February 06, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
i also think the dog should be under control and that once with learning to attack the dog should also learn to release on command.i will film next week the evolution of the dogs i already posted
This is another important exercise that we do as we are dealing with public civilian or to be duty in the street ... we do not want our dogs 2 get crazy! Therefore, the said dog must be under control!