Line Breeding/ In Breeding

[Santos]

cred ca ar fi bine sa  vorbim mai mult despre crestere si genetica

I think we should talk more about breeding and genetics.

[zimbris]

I like line breeding, I have seen outstanding dogs that are results of such breeding projects. To name 2 that quickly come to my mind - India and Nero. India is line bred on Tituts z PS.. anyone who knows that name, would have expectations from such line breeding 

Eu sunt de acord cu consangvinizarile, am vazut caini f buni rezultati din asa ceva. India si Nero sunt 2 exemple care imi vin acum in minte. India e consangvinizata pe Tituts z PS.. oricine cunoaste numele, ar trebui sa aiba asteptari de la o astfel de consangvinizare

[Santos]

dupa parerea mea nu consagvinizarea este importanta ci cum selectam reproducatorii si dupa ce criteriii facem selectia

My oppinion is that the line breeding is not so important but the way we select the dogs that we breed and after what criterions we make the selection.

[RogerW]

I like nephew to aunt, or uncle to niece line breeding.  After it gets very tight, and only after that and before any familial degeneration, a total outcross from a line that is as tight as that line is what I look for.  But we only breed best to best, line breeding or not.  This is what works (literally) for us the best.
(GSDs are not what I am talking here, I am new(er) to GSDs.)   But I have been breeding working hog dogs a long time, and more recently the Bandogs.  To lock in working traits that I count on we must line breed; to regain health and broaden alleles for hybrid vigour (not exactly hybrid vigour but that is what everyone calls it) outcrosses must be very, very carefully chosen and then right back into the line to start tightening again.
Breeding only for traits out of two dogs unrelated will get a great F1 dog, but breeding further just on traits is tricky to say the least, and is rife with bringing in more and more health related problems, unfortunately.   If a breeder only wanted to produce F1 litters, line breeding would not be important.   No breeding program for a purpose or abilities such as our catch dogs need, could exist with out line and inbreeding, but I also believe in outcrossing at the very right time.

prefer nepot cu matusa, sau unchi cu nepoata. Cand devine prea stransa (consangvinizarea) si numai atunci si inainte de ceva degenerari familiale, caut un out-cross intr-o linie asa consangvinizata strans. Dar montam doar cel mai bun cu cea mai buna, cu sau fara consangvinizare. Asta a functionat (literalmente) pt noi cel mai bine.
Nu despre CG vorbesc aici, sunt ceva mai nou in domeniul CG. Dar am crescut caini de vanatoare (de mistreti) multa vreme, iar mai recent Bandog. Pt a pastra anumite calitati de lucru pe care eu le caut, este necesara consangvinizarea; pt a recastiga sanatatea si a largi vigurozitatea hibrida (nu chiar vigurozitate hibrida dar asa o numeste lumea) outcross-uri trebuie foarte, foarte atent alese iar apoi revenire la linia initiala pt strangerea consangvinizarii.
Monta facuta intre doi caini neinruditi, avand ca scop doat calitatile de lucru, va produce un caine de F1 (formula 1 ?) dar cresterea mai departe doar pt calitati este cel putin cu obstacole si e plina cu aducerea treptata de probleme de sanatate, din pacate. Daca un crescator ar vrea sa produca doar caini de F1, consangvinizarea nu ar mai fi importanta.  Nici un program de crestere cu un scop sau abilitati asa cum cainii nostri de vanatoare au nevoie, nu ar putea exista fara consangvinizare, dar eu cred in out-cross facut la vremea potrivita.

[zimbris]

But we only breed best to best, line breeding or not.

dar incrucisam cel mai bun cu cel mai bun, cu sau fara consangvinizare.

To lock in working traits that I count on we must line breed

Pt a pastra anumite calitati de lucru pe care eu contez, este nevoie de consangvinizare.

Thank you for your input Roger, I actually did expect that you would share a word or two, knowing you have bred dogs for some years now, be it other breeds.
I didn't use to pay much attention to line breeding until I spoke with John and he opened my eyes to new "dimensions" as far as breeding goes.

It's really good to have you, Santos, maybe even John, pouring info here based on individual past experiences. I am not a great mind in the field of this topic but I judge things by results as a basic principle. And I see great dogs resulted from tight line breeding.. as well as good dogs resulted from out-crosses.  And so, i gather it is down to the individual (breeder) to decide which way to go. Like yourself, Dux and i are planning to make use of both out-cross and line breeding. We will probably need a few good years to be able to draw some conclusions. With that in mind, as I said before your input is valuable here.

Multumesc pt aport Roger, chiar m-am asteptat sa postezi si tu, stiind ca ai crescut caini multi ani, chiar daca e vb de alte rase.
Nu obisnuiam sa dau mare atentie consangvinizarilor dar dupa cateva conversatii cu John am inceput sa vad lucrurile altfel.

E bine sa te avem aici, pe Santos, poate si John, sa veniti cu informatii bazate pe experientele voastre din trecut. Nu sunt o minte lumiata in domeniul asta dar din principiu judec lucrurile dupa rezultate, iar caini buni am vazut si din consangvinizari si din out-crossuri. Si uite asa, trag concluzia ca depinde de fiecare crescator in parte ce si cum sa faca. ca si tine, eu si Dux intentionam sa folosim consangvinizarea si out-crossul in viitor. Vom avea nevoie de cativa ani pt a trage niste concluzii clare. Cu asta in minte, cum spuneam, aportul vostru aici e important.

[zimbris]

...just thinking through things again.. I wish I decided earlier in life, to get into dog breeding, not just dog owning.. and to think what dogs I had........... fills me with regrets yet more..

[guest]

and more recently the Bandogs.

Bandogs!!!Yeah!

Sorry for the off topic! 

[zimbris]

yeah! I like them too! muscles allover 

...sorry for the off-topic 

[Santos]

Consangvinizarea este buna numai intr-o anumita masura Prin consangvinizari repetate apar foarte multe probleme de sanatate si mai ales de reproductie Sunt de acord cu aceasta numai daca nu am reproducatori de calitate cu care sa montez sau vreau sa fixez mai bine caracterele unui reproducator. Din experienta mea( avand cam 80 de cuiburi pe an si facand reproductie de 25 ani) pot sa va spun ca ceea ce conteaza cel mai mult este calitatea reproducatorilor.
Va pot da un exemplu mai recent: Am 4 femele de CG care sunt surori de cuib, am facut monta cu Greif cu toate 4 .  Puii rezultati au fost ca si calitate in functie de calitatea mamei. Una dintre femele avea o mica problema de temperament transmitand-o si la unii din pui. Alt exemplu este Caja si fratele ei Car. Ea a dat puii foarte buni cu toate ca nu este o femela foarte buna in paza dar nu are deloc probleme de comportament.  Masculul este agresiv cu instabilitate. Instabilitatea a transmis-o si puilor determinandu-ma sa il scot de la reproductie .In consangvinizare trebuie urmariti parintii,  bunicii, fratii, surorile si mai ales produsii care sunt scosi.

Line breeding is good only to some extent. Through repetitive line breeding one comes across several health issues and especially reproductive issues. I am for line breeding only if I don't have breeding dogs that are not that good or if I want to pin down specific working qualities. By my experience (i have been breeding dogs for the last 25 years and have about 80 litters in a single year) I can say that what counts the most is the quality of the breeding dogs (male and female).
I can mention a more recent example: I got 4 females, litter mates, I bred them all to Greif. The resulted pups qualities were in line with the qualities of their individual mothers. one of the females has a mild temperament issue and she passed that on to some of the pups. Another example is Caja and her brother Car. She produced very good dogs although she is not impressive herself as far as protection however, she has a balanced temperament. The male though is aggressive with some lack of stability. He passed that on to some progenies so I excluded him from further breeding. Parents must be monitored when line breeding, grandparents, litter mates and especially resulted progenies.

[RogerW]

"if I want to pin down specific working qualities"  

sau vreau sa fixez mai bine caracterele unui reproducator

*I always want to do this, that's why I breed.

Intotdeauna asta e scopul meu, de-aia cresc caini.

"I am for line breeding only if I don't have breeding dogs that are not that good"

Sunt de acord cu aceasta numai daca nu am reproducatori de calitate cu care sa montez

*In my mind, this sentence cancels out the first for me.  

In opinia mea, afirmatia asta o anuleaza pe cea de mai sus


I agree that parents and progeny and all must be monitored.  How in the world can you monitor 80 litters per year if you are one man, or two as we are here?   I don't breed so much, but try to get dogs in the hands of people who will observe and report to me everything about them.   No way could I breed more than 3 or 4 litters a year, and I haven't done that in a long time.
My goal is consistency, and I can't get consistency by breeding two great dogs that have no blood in common; the pick of the litter is fantastic maybe.  There may be two others that might be decent.  Someone will wind up owning the rest or I will have to keep them until they're old enough to really evaluate and then cull them if they're no good.  I don't have an army of helpers.  I need consistent traits and consistent health, and you will not get consistent traits unless you line breed, IMO.   That is why there are "lines" of dogs and well, breeds of dogs.   However, I fully agree that it brings up health problems that are in that specific line, and that's why I do it, so I can see what is in the line.  If it's no good or brings in HD, skin problems, bad nerves, etc, I'll start over.  But if it's good and I breed tight, then it's not just good but GREAT and I know what I am working with and do an outcross with a similarly tight line whose health problems have been identified and eradicated.  Breeding one good dog to another ...you can never know what is in the line, just a litter and only those you keep or monitor closely; only someone down the line who has paid good money gets to know for sure, and it usually ain't so hot if the breeder keeps the best of the litter of a scatterbred dog.  

Sunt de acord ca parintii si produsii trebuiesc monitorizati. dar cum poti monitoriza 80 de cuiburi daca esti un singur om, sau doi, cum suntem noi aici? Eu nucresc atat de mult, dar incerc sa dau cateii produsi in mainile unor oameni care ma vor actualiza cu privire la cateii dati. In nici un caz nu as putea produce mai mult de 3 - 4 cuiburi pe an, iar asta n-am mai facut demult.
Scopul meu e consistenta, iar nu pot obtine consistenta combinand 2 caini care nu au nici un grad de rudenie; ok, poate un catel din cuib va fi f bun.. poate vor mai fi inca 2 care sunt cel putin buni. Cineva va sfarsi prin a detine ce ramane sau va trebui sa-i pastrez eu pana cresc destul de mari sa-i evaluez iar ulterior sa-i selectez daca nu sunt buni. Nu am la dispozitie o armata de ajutor. Am nevoie de consistenta in privinta calitatilor si a sanatatii iar acestea nu le vei obtine daca nu faci consangvinizare, in opinia mea. De aceea exista "linii" de caini si rase de caini. Dar, sunt total de acord ca apar si problemele de sanatate care exista in linia respectiva si tot de-aia o fac (consangvinizare) ca sa pot vedea clar ce se afla in acea linie. daca nu e buna si produce HD, probleme de piele, nervi slavi, etc, o iau de la capat. dar daca rezultatul e bun si fac consangvinizare stransa, atunci de la bine trec la FOARTE BINE si stiu cu ce anume lucrez si recurg la un outcross cu o linie stransa in care problemele de sanatate au fost identificate si eradicate. sa montezi un caine bun cu un altul bun... niciodata nu poti stii sigur ce este intr-o linie, doar ce pastrezi din cuib si monitorizezi indeaproape; numai cineva care s-a sacrificat pe durata lunga, inclusiv financiar, poate afla niste raspunsuri concrete, si de obicei nu e mare lucru, daca crescatorul pastreaza ce e mai bun din cuib.

[RogerW]

I want to qualify that last post to make sure you know I am speaking of the breeds that I have experience with.  In the German Shepherd world, it is much easier to research dogs and breed like Santos speaks of because working dogs are more evaluated by third parties than bulldogs are on a farm some place in the woods.
So, I can see it being easier to breed without line breeding because there is SO much information available about lines of German Shepherds.  Not so with the dogs I work with... they (the ones I like) were farm utility dogs or just extreme catch dogs.

[zimbris]

rog, i want to translate this last post but am not sure I understand this:

In the German Shepherd world, it is much easier to research dogs and breed like Santos speaks of because working dogs are more evaluated by third parties than bulldogs are on a farm some place in the woods.

[RogerW]

I meant that there is a German Shepherd pedigree base, there are tons of people who have seen the best working dogs at work.  There is a whole sport designed just for German Shepherds.  German Shepherds have been evaluated by third parties in various sports since they've been here, the working ones have.  So it's easy to find someone that can tell you about every dog in Greif's background, for instance.  This is not the case with working farm dogs.   They either did their job or didn't and got dead, and that's about all you know. lol   With the advent of ABs in sports, there is more information about them out there in the last 20 years, but it's nothing like the information out there about German Shepherds.

Ma refer la faptul ca exista o baza de date a CGului, exista multi oameni care au vazut la lucru cainii cei mai buni. Exista un sport facut special pt CG. Ciobanestii germani au fost evaluati de parti tertiare in sporturi diferite de la bun inceput, cei de lucru cel putin. deci e relativ usor sa gasesti pe cineva care sa-ti spuna despre cainii din sangele lui Greif, de exemplu. nu asa este si cu cainii de lucru / ferma. Fie si-au facut treaba, fie nu si ca au murit si.. cam atata informatie stii.  Cu aparitia Bulldogului American in competitii, de vreo 20 de ani sunt ceva mai multe informatii, dar nu se compara cu volumul de info despre CG.

[Santos]

CG are o diversitate mare de indivizi si se poate lucra fara sa faci consangvinizare Problema cea mai mare a consangvinizarii este scaderea vitalitatii care este foarte importanta la un caine de lucru Dupa mine selectia indivizilor este cea mai buna metoda in crestere ,nu vorbesc numai de caini ci de toate animalele domestice asa sau format    toate   rasele

The GSD has a huge pool of individuals and breeding can be done without making use of line breeding. The greatest problem with line breeding is lowered vitality which is obviously very important for a working dog. In my view, selecting the individual dog is the best method in breeding, not just when it comes to dogs but domestic animals in general, that's how breeds came to be

[Man Stopper]

I could see plenty of line/in breeding on Grief in the near future...!

Anticipez multe consangvinizari pe Greif in viitorul apropiat...!