Civil training / Dresaj de protectie

[bobo70]

Hello "Man Stopper".
What do you think? How should I work with my puppy awaken instincts but is it stress?
From personal experience do you think?
Thanks.

[zimbris]

With correct body language and tone of voice i say don't stop the fire burning.. But on the other hand if the signs are of fear and nerves well we can minimize it i guess if corrected early on in life but to get rid of this trait entireley just might be a hard one.. One has to be pretty good at evaluating the individual dog in different scenarios, in order how much correction should be given..

He will post a video clip for us to actually see the dog, but he's going to do that tomorrow. My presumption is that the dog is not properly socialized...

[Man Stopper]

Yeah i guess so thats normally the case, a lot of guys don't socialize there dogs believing the old myth that dogs become crazy if they dont see people.
20 years ago this was very common with young guys owning Rotties, Pit Bulls and GSD and i must say that i was on the same boat before i attended training and listened to trainers Eg: Von Forell

[kangdanlin]

tomorrow ( i mean today) i will post a movie clip with this dog....i already spoke to a friend of mine to help me , by playing the bad guy so you can see it's reactions....is aggression , but not created by fear, but by dominance i think....
 meanwhile, i must say a funny story about how i woke up this morning...the dog eate my shoes,  

[Man Stopper]

Hey Bobo,

Hello "Man Stopper".
What do you think? How should I work with my puppy awaken instincts but is it stress?
From personal experience do you think?
Thanks.

Hey Bobo not to sure what you mean by "awaken instincts" but a young pup should be trained obviously with minimal stress and and not pushed to far to soon..
My dog personally didn't have his first bite until at 3 years of age and it was a full mouthed grip, which must be genetically passed on.. I seen his defensive traits at 4 -5 months of age, but at the same time he had plenty of prey.. Say 60% Defense 40 % prey and i basically worked on the tone of my voice and timing of it when he was commanded to guard for example or be on watch.. I just built on his awareness and suspicion, some guys mistake it for thin nerves but with the deep voice and his expression i really dont believe for a second that he will back down that easily...  So again  your tone of voice and the timing of it is most important i feel, in giving command especially for REAL protection work...

[bobo70]

Hey Bobo,

Hello "Man Stopper".
What do you think? How should I work with my puppy awaken instincts but is it stress?
From personal experience do you think?
Thanks.

Hey Bobo not to sure what you mean by "awaken instincts" but a young pup should be trained obviously with minimal stress and and not pushed to far to soon..
My dog personally didn't have his first bite until at 3 years of age and it was a full mouthed grip, which must be genetically passed on.. I seen his defensive traits at 4 -5 months of age, but at the same time he had plenty of prey.. Say 60% Defense 40 % prey and i basically worked on the tone of my voice and timing of it when he was commanded to guard for example or be on watch.. I just built on his awareness and suspicion, some guys mistake it for thin nerves but with the deep voice and his expression i really dont believe for a second that he will back down that easily...  So again  your tone of voice and the timing of it is most important i feel, in giving command especially for REAL protection work...

I thought that when it is young to be stimulated in a certain direction.
For example:
-do what prohibitions apical this time, i can negatively influence the working ability will be mature...
                                                                                     or,
-do what kind of exercises should be done to stimulate the native instincts ...
I do not know if I do it? I hope to understand something ...

[zimbris]

Let's see if I can help

Man stopper a spus:

Bobo, nu cred ca inteleg ce vrei sa spui prin 'awaken instincts' dar ce e sigur este ca un catel nu trebuie impins prea 'departe' prea curand, trebuie pusa presiune minima asupra lui...
Cainele meu a pus gura pe manson abia la varsta de 3 ani si atunci a fost o priza plina, lucru ce se mosteneste genetic. Cand avea cam 4 - 5 luni de viata i-am observat manifestarile instinctului de aparare iar in acelasi timp nu ducea lipsa de inst. de prada. Sa spunem 60% aparare si 40 prada iar eu am fost atent la tonul din vocea mea si sincronizarea cu momentele in care ii ceream sa apere, de ex, sau sa isi protejeze teritoriul. Am 'construit' pe suspiciunea si agerimea lui, unii confunda asta cu nervi slabi, dar cu vocea profunda si expresivitatea lui nu cred ca ar da inapoi asa usor in anumite situatii. Deci din nou, tonul din voce si cand anume e folosit sunt in opinia mea cele mai importante, cand e vorba de comanda, mai ales in contextul antrenamentului de 'real'


Bobo, daca vrei, acum ca sunt prin zona, posteaza in romana si traduc eu, daca crezi ca e cazul.

[zimbris]

While reading your post, I just realized that's what I did with Ben, my first GSD, only I did not have much knowledge in dog training. I think a great quality in working with your dog (or with dogs in general) is to be able to have a two-way communication, the dog tunes in to your actions and in turn you tune in to his response - and sometimes is the other way around. I am no professional dog trainer, but that worked for me, I managed to do with Ben elemets that you normally do on a professional training field.

[Man Stopper]

Its always good to start of with a naturally gifted dog, i dont like the idea of most guys i have met telling me they are going to turn the dog into some kind of hard dog thru repetitive sleeve training.. One particular dog who had alot of potential all at 6 months of age, but was overtrained i feel on the arm resulting in the good old happy sleeve syndrome. Just to focused on the sleeve and not on the man, i actually would consider a female sired by this dog as he is awesome to look at, similar to Held V Ritterberg who is one of my favourites.. I know that the GSD was made for working and stuff, but this breed caught my eye for their expression and overall beauty..

[zimbris]

I like the way you put it "the good old happy sleeve syndrome". I too think many make that mistake... Focused on the man - that's how I would describe a "real" dog!

[Man Stopper]

I like the way you put it "the good old happy sleeve syndrome". I too think many make that mistake... Focused on the man - that's how I would describe a "real" dog!

What would be the easiest way to train the dog to be targeting the man rather then the sleeve ?

[zimbris]

I like the way you put it "the good old happy sleeve syndrome". I too think many make that mistake... Focused on the man - that's how I would describe a "real" dog!

What would be the easiest way to train the dog to be targeting the man rather then the sleeve ?

I guess basically having a decoy who can get the dog's attention after he let the sleeve go off his arm. We've done that several times with a number of dogs, maybe Dux can add to what I just said; Dux calls me when we work dogs that we want to train for real protection and so I have to kind of 'annoy' the dog while he still has the sleeve in his mouth. But the satisfaction is so much greater when we work dogs with good defense drive and fight drive; we posted this clip before:
[youtube:ixfzwbdc]I8lj4tGm0lQ[/youtube:ixfzwbdc]
Note the first dog, he has plenty defense and fight and we did not have to do much work at all, he let go of the sleeve because he was after the decoy; note how quickly he outs the sleeve and refocuses on the agitator. I will record future sessions so you can see how we do things. I'm pretty sure there are a few ways of getting the job done out there, we just go with the one that worked for us.

[Man Stopper]

Will try this method with my next dog and believe will get good results by as you say getting the dogs attention... Is there any other tips from Dux or John perhaps in whats most important in the introduction of security training ? Dani am sure you have a few tips you might want to share and i would very much like some posting from Santos on Civil Training as i really like the videos he has posted of his dogs /training...

Manstopper spune:

Voi incerca aceasta metoda cu viitorul meu caine si cred ca voi obtine rezultate canalizand atent atentia cainelui... poate Dux si John au ceva pareri in privinta introducerii cainelui antrenamentului de protectie? Dani sunt convins ca ai ceva sfaturi pe care le-ai putea impartasi si as aprecia ceva postari de la Santos cu privire la antrenamentul de protectie, imi plac mult clipurile postate de el cu cainii in antrenament...

[zimbris]

Will try this method with my next dog and believe will get good results by as you say getting the dogs attention... Is there any other tips from Dux or John perhaps in whats most important in the introduction of security training ? Dani am sure you have a few tips you might want to share and i would very much like some posting from Santos on Civil Training as i really like the videos he has posted of his dogs /training...

Well I personally believe you need to make a really good team with the individual dog, 'read' his/her potential and temperament and work alongside those. I think you need to work quite a bit just on developing the drive, see that seriousness coming out of the dog (when he is over 1 year old), no sleeve or rag in the picture whatsoever, just get the dog to develop that 'anger' towards the agitator, to the point where the dog wants to take the fight to him, without waiting to be provoked.
Both Santos and Dux have worked with very good protection dogs and they got experience with this. But all that experience is ZERO if the genetics are not there.

Personal cred ca trebuie sa formezi 'echipa' buna cu cainele individual, sa-i 'citesti' potentialul (care difera de la caine la caine) si temperamentul si sa lucrezi in baza celor doua elemente. Cred ca trebuie lucrat suficient de mult doar pe dezvoltarea instinctului (de lupta), sa vezi acea 'seriozitate' in reactia cainelui, fara nici un manson (etc) in imagine, pana la punctul in care cainele e dornic sa duca lupta la atentator fara sa astepte sa fie provocat.
Atat Santos cat si Dux au avut pe mana caini f buni de protectie si au multa experienta in acest sens. Dar toata experienta e ZERO daca animalul nu are genetica cu care sa se poata lucra.

[Man Stopper]

Your right that its a bit of a hassle if you have to get it out of the dog, and personally i wouldnt have much faith in a dog that has to be provoked over and over again..Genetics is definently what is needed and i very much like the videos Santos has shown with his dogs/training....