Post by: Man Stopper on March 02, 2010, 06:05:48 AM
As vrea sa aud niste pareri cu privire la separarea cateilor de mama la varsta de 4 saptamani, ce credeti, asta ar avea impact fizic si psihologic negativ asupra cateilor?
Post by: zimbris on March 02, 2010, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Wanted some opinions on if its OK if the pups are seperated from the mother at the age of 4 weeks, would this be negative psycologically and physically ??
I think I would like to hear John's opinion on this one.. I would personally say there are disadvantages to early separation...
Mi-ar face placere sa stiu opinia lui John in privinta asta.. personal cred ca sunt dezavantaje in separarea timpurie a cateilor de mama..
Post by: dux on March 02, 2010, 07:53:04 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Wanted some opinions on if its OK if the pups are seperated from the mother at the age of 4 weeks, would this be negative psycologically and physically ??eu zic ca nu este bine.atat din punct de vedere ,,psihologic'' deoarece cateii invata multe de la mama la varsta respectiva si din punct de vedere medical nu este bine.eu am facut asta candva si cateaua a facut ,,mamita'' adica s-au intarit mameloanele ca piatra.de atunci am luat exemplul pe care mi-l da natura.adica mi-am pus intrebarea daca lupoaica se separa de pui la varsta asta.si raspunsul este nu.lupoaica isi intarca singura puii si tot ea ii invata si anumite ,,secvente'' comportamentale.eu de atunci n-am mai separat puii de catea la varsta de o luna si nu am avut absolut nici o problema.
As vrea sa aud niste pareri cu privire la separarea cateilor de mama la varsta de 4 saptamani, ce credeti, asta ar avea impact fizic si psihologic negativ asupra cateilor?
I believe early separation is not good. Psycologically, the pups are still learning a lot fro the mother, and from a health stand point that's also bad. I did that a few years back and the mother developed a milk related problem (mamita), the breasts went very hard, almost stone-like. And so since then I learned my 'nature given' lesson. I asked myself if the mother wolf separates her pups that early. The answer is no. The mother wolf will do that at the right time and in the same time she also teaches the pups a number of behavioral 'sequences'. And so I stopped separating the pups at the age of 4 weeks and had no problems since.
Post by: Man Stopper on March 02, 2010, 09:33:16 AM
Post by: bobo70 on March 02, 2010, 09:53:08 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
What kind of lessons can the Mother teach the pups,could you guys give some examples please ? If not at 4 weeks then at 5 weeks i have read that its beneficial for a pup to learn independance and deal with what the world has to offer, which is a good thing i feel... I can understand that nutritionally it can have a negative impact on growth due to a lack of cacium and other valuable supplements....If the circumstance arises that the mother is bothered with the scratches and so on from feeding,would milk supplement and mince meat, egg, bread be sufficient enough to replace mother natures given milk ?
I think the mother's milk can't replace with the human's food.
The mother's milk has many natural supliments and help increase immunity pups.
Post by: Man Stopper on March 03, 2010, 03:37:09 AM
Post by: Man Stopper on March 04, 2010, 03:03:58 AM
Post by: Iuliana on July 03, 2010, 12:48:19 AM
Deja la 7 saptamani este limita...
Separarea precoce a puilor de mama rezulta în marea majoritate a cazurilor în caini maturi complet dezechilibrati mentali si comportamental.
Identificatia cu specia canina, învatarea limbii si a codurilori canine si a regulilor de ierarhie, de inhibitie a muscaturii, etc. toate astea este mama care le învata puilor si în contact cu ceilalti pui.
Consider ca persoanele care pun aceste întrebari habar n-au de regulile elementare are cresterii. Multi vor sa se lanseze in cresterea cainilor pt bani sau pt ca "vai ce draguti sunt puii", dar asta nu trebuie luat asa "à la légère". Si de ce sa separam puii la 5 saptamani de fapt ? Ca sa nu mai fim nevoiti sa ne ocupam de ei ? Ca sa putem lansa o alta sarcina ?
In Franta, de exemplu, este interzis sa vinzi puii inainte de 8 sapt, iar aici in Belgia, înainte de 7.
Cum am spus mai sus, 7 saptamani este minimum, ideal ar fi 8.
Tot beneficiul este pt viitorii pui, care vor fi echilibrati si vor avea regulile de baza a limbajului canin. Si un educator uman nu se poate substitui mamei in ceea ce concerna învatarea acestui limbaj canin. E normal nu ?
In cazul unui pui orfan, de ex., ideal este sa fie pus cu un caine adult si echilibrat care îl va putea învata aceasta parte a educatiei.
Post by: kangdanlin on July 03, 2010, 01:03:50 AM
Post by: zimbris on July 03, 2010, 01:04:30 AM
Eu l-am luat pe Ben al meu (primul meu CG) la 1 luna si 2 zile!!! Pe vremea aia habar nu aveam de una sau alta.. ma interesa sa iau catelul ca eram disperat sa am unul. Pe langa asta, la momentul cand am ajuns acolo deja mai erau doar 2 catei in cuib, Ben si respectiv frate-sau negru complet. Altfel spus, fratiorii lui fusesera luati mai devreme de o luna si 2 zile!!! Din fericire cuibul respectiv a fost unul "puternic", nu numai ca si Ben si frate-sau Dick au fost caini super, dar putinele progenituri ale lor au fost caini de exceptie, nu toti au excelat pe fizic, dar in temperament au fost "rachete".
Ben a fost mai subtirel decat Dick si este posibil ca, faptul ca l-am luat atat de devreme sa fi avut un cuvant de spus in privinta asta.
Am mai vazut cazuri de-a dreptul enervante, unde crescatorul a dat catelul la 2 sau 3 saptamani!!!!! urmand ca noul 'proprietar' sa hraneasca cu biberonul catelul (????!!
) iar catelul bine-nteles a murit in doar 2 zile (din cate tin minte)..
Post by: Bogdan on July 03, 2010, 01:36:47 AM
Daniela (DogPassion) si Windy au acum o relatie deosebita tocmai pentru ca Windy la 4 saptamani reusea sa evadeze din tarc doar pentru a fi mai aproape de mine decat de mama ei. Acest caine o sa aprecieze intotdeauna relatia cu stapanul mai mult decat relatia cu alt caine.
In acelasi cuib, Wolf este o fire total opusa de Windy. Independent si atent cu stapanul doar daca i se ofera o recompensa "grasa".
Wako la 4 saptamani isi manifesta deja frustrarea prin latrat si la 8 luni a rupt lesa in timpul unei sedinte de paza atat de mult sa "turat".
Astia sunt cainii care au avut ceva diferit de restul puilor. Bineinteles ca au si ei defecte la fel cum ceilalti au calitati.
Dar cu siguranta nu se pot face (si nu face nimeni) astfel de observatii in cazul in care scopul crescatorului e altul decat oferirea unui pui care sa satisfaca setul de cerinte al cumparatorului.
Post by: guest on July 03, 2010, 09:03:17 AM
Si da, este ilegal si la noi despartirea puilor de cuib mai repede de 8 saptamani. Cati respecta asta, desi stiu? ...
Pe de alta parte, am mai citit, cu stupefactie, cereri in care era specificat ca puiul sa aiba varsta de 2, 3, 4 saptamani - probabil "prada" preferata a inmultitorilor, care abia asteapta sa vanda puiul cat mai repede => sa scape cu cat mai putine vaccinuri/deparazitari/ hrana, de cele mai multe ori la pretul unuia de 2 luni.
Post by: Santos on July 03, 2010, 09:38:40 AM
Post by: zimbris on July 03, 2010, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: "Santos"
la 1,5 luni se pot separa de mama ,daca trece de 2,5 luni si nu este separat de mama si frati mai tarziu pot aparea probleme de comportament
hmmm...
n-as prea fi de acord, in trecut am vazut opusul, catei care-au crescut in grup au devenit caini super, inclusiv cand au fost separati. Personal as lasa lucrurile sa mearga de la sine, sa nu fortez eu intr-o directie sau alta. Las cateaua 'libera' sa dea cu parul cand crede ea ca e gata sa faca asta
Post by: Man Stopper on July 05, 2010, 11:14:56 AM
Would this 5 month old pup have dependance issues and/or find it difficult to be calm; Or would it vary from dog to dog ?
As i am considering to get a pup as i have described, appreciate some experienced opinions..
Ps Have not seen the pups since they were 4 weeks of age, so dont really know what to expect when i see them this week...!
As vrea sa intreb care credeti ca sunt bunele si relele care pot aparea cand 3 catei de 16-20 saptamani stau in acelasi padog, pana cand vor fi separati..
Ar avea acest catel de 5 luni, probleme de dependenta si/sau s-ar stapani/calma cu greu (ar fi agitat); sau lucrurile difera de la caz la caz? urmeaza sa iau acest catel si astept cu nerabdare opiniile voastre...
PS - Nu am mai vazut cateii de cand aveau 4 saptamani si nu stiu la ce sa ma astept cand ii vedea saptamana asta...!
Post by: Santos on July 05, 2010, 12:09:16 PM
if they were taken out of the kennel run for walks only with the owner / breeder chanses for behavior problems are small, but if they only spent the entire time just in their pack, they may encounter socialization issues
Post by: guest on July 06, 2010, 09:09:58 AM
Post by: Man Stopper on July 06, 2010, 11:08:30 AM
Quote from: "Santos"
daca au mai fost scosi singuri cu stapanul pot sa nu aiba prea mari probleme, dar daca au stat numai in haita ar putea sa aiba ceva probleme cu socializarea
if they were taken out of the kennel run for walks only with the owner / breeder chanses for behavior problems are small, but if they only spent the entire time just in their pack, they may encounter socialization issues
I dont think that these dogs have been socialized and that dissapoints me.... What kind of socialization issues would one expect ?
Could it still be possible that a 5 month old pup can adapt to the hustle and bustle of a busy city for example ?
Nu cred ca acesti catei au fost socializati si asta ma dezamageste... cam la ce fel de probleme de socializare sa ma astept?
Se poate totusi ca un catel de 5 luni sa se adapteze stiului de viata de oras mare si zgomotos, de exemplu?
Post by: zimbris on July 06, 2010, 11:24:26 AM
parerea mea.. da, cred ca mai poti socializa catelul si sa-l aduci la linia de plutire in cele din urma, DACA vorbim de genetica buna. Eu asa cred. O sa ai nevoie de ceva timp si atentie la detalii.. dar eu unul cred ca se poate.. sa vedem si alte pareri..
Post by: Santos on July 06, 2010, 12:21:51 PM
if it's a good pup you can socialize it even at this stage or even later on, as long as it's got a good temperament
Post by: Man Stopper on July 08, 2010, 10:36:24 AM
Big strong bones and very nice expressions, showed some puppy barking which was a good sign IMO.
Although the male that i have the option of taking home has a habit of going in kennel with mother, when the breeder yells at his stud dog to shut up.The Sire puts his head down, like he has fear of owner and the pup has a similar response as his Sire showing signs of fear..
Is this young pup like this because of sensitivity to loud screaming or is this due to NO socialization...OR BOTH ?
Only 2 males in this litter and have been waiting a while for this to happen and its the last time, as Sire is 11 years old and has lines which appeals to me and are very rare.. Do you guys think i'll be taking a big gamble, in trying to correct a 14 week old pup who has only spent time with litter mates and parents.. Seems to be sensitive to loud screaming or ?
When taken out from the kennel he was more on alert then other 2 pups, (suspicious) and barked at me from 1.5 m distance, also travelled greater distance from his kennel run then other 2 pups.
Some advice would be very helpful as am in 2 minds of getting this pup,because of the behaviour which i have explained..
Am vazut astazi niste catei care nu au fost socializati deloc.
Oase mari si puternice, multa expresivitate, ceva latrat pe ici pe colo, un semn bun in opinia mea.
Desi masculul pe care intentionez sa-l iau acasa cu mine are obiceiul de a merge cu mama sa in cotet, cand stapanul triga la mascul sa taca din gura. Masculul pune capul jos, ca si cum i-ar fi teama de stapan, iar catelul are o reactie asemenatoare.
Are catelul reactia asta datorita lipsei socializarii, sau a sensibilitatii fata de zgomote puternice.. sau AMANDOUA?
Sunt numai 2 masculi in cuib si am asteptat ceva timp sa apara cuibul respectiv, fiind si ultimul din aceasta monta, masculul fiind in varsta de 11 ani si avand un sange care ma atrage dar care este si f rar... Ce credeti, risc mult, luand un catel care a petrecut tot timpul de viata cu parintii si fratiorii de cuib.. pare sa fie sensibil la zgomote mari sau..?
Cand e scos din cotet era ceva mai alert decat ceilalti masculi, (suspicios) si a latrat la mine de la o distanta de 1.5 m, de asemenea s-a indepartat de cotet pt o distanta mai mare decat ceilalti 2 catei.
As aprecia mult sfaturile voastre pt ca sunt inca nehotarat cu privire la acest mascul, datorita comportamentului pe care vi l-am descris...
Post by: zimbris on July 08, 2010, 11:08:03 AM
first of all, I don't like to hear the owner shout at the sire, presuming the sire was doing its job, barking at the 'stranger, you. Also, I would advice you follow your own experience, don't be too technical, you know what you are after.. I would personally not take a pup who gets scared by loud noises. OK, so the pup was not socialized, not taken outside far from the kennel run, but is the area one tat has loud noises.. cars passing by.. etc..? If the pup gets scared by ANY loud noise, although noises have been 'around' then yes, I would say there's a problem there. But if he simply was not taken out much at all and was not exposed to loud noises.. then I would say it's just a matter of socialization indeed. Also i would test the pup for food drive / apetite and watch her behavior when interracting with the littermates.
When reading what you said, I am tempted to wonder if the owner actually performed some 'abrupt' behavior on the pups.. if the male retreats in the kennel when the owner shouts...
I am presuming you studied the blood before going for it ;)[/color]
Post by: zimbris on July 08, 2010, 11:33:17 AM
Ceea ce am spus e doar opinia mea, e posibil sa ma insel cu privire la unele lucruri.. e doar ceea ce cred eu in conditiile prezentate. Daca e nevoie, nu ezita sa pui intrebari crescatorului.
Post by: Man Stopper on July 08, 2010, 11:55:10 AM
This is the only reason why i'm leaning towards , taking a chance..
Better to try and fail, then not try at all.. The saying goes...
Post by: zimbris on July 08, 2010, 12:23:23 PM
Well you have Onyx.. your 'answer' may lie somewhere in the dam's bloodline I guess...
Based on your last comment, I would guess you're confidant this pup is what you would expect it to be.. also it sounds like it's the sharpest out of the litter (well.. so far..). Just trust your own judgment man, your standards are high enough to cause your eyes to spot out any things that would make this pup (or litter, for that matter) not good, or not close to your expectations.
And of course.. when you get the pup, be sure to present it to the guys here :mrgreen:
You mentioned Onyx.. how's the old guy doing?
Aha.. inteleg..
Pai tu il ai pe Onyx.. 'raspunsul' tau s-ar putea sa se gaseasca undeva in sangele mamei cred..
In baza ultimelei tale postari, as crede ca intr-adevar catelul asta e ceea ce te astepti sa fie / ce cauti.. de asemenea pare sa fie si cel mai bun din cuib (cel putin deocamdata..) Ai incredere in tine. tu ai standarde suficient de mari incat ochii tai sa poata repera elemente care sa descrie catelul (sau chiar cuibul) ca fiind nu atat de bun, sau nu aproape de steptarile tale.
Si bine-nteles.. daca si cand vei lua catelul, sa il prezinti si forumistilor aici :mrgreen:
Apropos de Onyx.. ce mai face batranul?
Post by: Man Stopper on July 08, 2010, 01:51:58 PM
The Sire of pups is same Sire as Onyx.. who goes 4 times back to (Security Pekiah) 5, 5,4 Ex Reidstern.
And the Dam is same pedigree as (Yultzen Abbey) inbred of best working lines in Austrlia over 25 years.. Some insight of working bloodlines in very distant Australia....
Post by: zimbris on July 08, 2010, 02:02:40 PM
I can't say much if I don't see the pup myself... I would love to give you a good opinion, but my eyes have to actually see the pup...
Post by: RogerW on July 08, 2010, 05:49:15 PM
This I believe is due to his lines, I doubt he would have been much different even if he were raised differently, but I will know more when I breed him to my female.
I have never hit my dogs, but if I raise my voice in anger, they may show some signs of being uncomfortable. They absolutely won't when someone else raises their voice, that is just because they are a bit handler compliant. Dogs don't want to make their owners angry, it has nothing to do with being afraid of strangers, though...IMO. And of course bad nerves are bad nerves, you have to get that pup off that yard and give it a chance to be a puppy for a while and then see, it's the only way you will know. Every puppy is a 50/50 gamble, it's either going to be worth the effort or not. You have hedged your bets by liking something about the line, I would go for it, I made that decision myself and am glad for it.
Post by: zimbris on July 08, 2010, 11:59:38 PM
Quote from: "RogerW"
Every puppy is a 50/50 gamble, it's either going to be worth the effort or not. You have hedged your bets by liking something about the line, I would go for it, I made that decision myself and am glad for it.True, very true
Post by: Man Stopper on July 09, 2010, 07:18:21 AM
Post by: Santos on July 09, 2010, 08:21:59 AM
I would think the litter is compromised. It could be due to socialization (lack of it) or genetic reasons. I am tempted to believe it's genetics, strong nerved pups show their confidence, even after being bit up.
Post by: zimbris on July 09, 2010, 01:59:50 PM
Insa tin cont de faptul ca tu ai scos muuulte cuiburi de catei.. deci ceva stii tu.. ;)[/color]
Post by: Man Stopper on July 10, 2010, 04:31:48 AM
Santos ai putea sa-ti dai cu parerea legat de un catel care evita contactul cu omul si latra.. Este corba de suspiciune, nervi slabi (genetic) sau lipsa socializarii, ce fel de caine va ajunge un asa catel, la maturitate? Mai vreau sa adaug ca acest catel care da semne de evitare, are incredere in el cand e separat de mama si ceilalti catei si pleaca in "cercetare" de buna voie..
De aceea sunt confuz cu privire la acest catel.
Post by: Santos on July 10, 2010, 05:06:54 AM
it's good that he's suspicious but you still need to test him for liud noises and after about 1 month of socialization you can monitor potential changes
Post by: Man Stopper on July 10, 2010, 05:22:50 AM
Post by: zimbris on July 10, 2010, 05:28:11 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Thanks Santos for your view, and would i guess have to take a 50/50 chance as Roger said, and see what eventuates.. Can you suggest any ways to make the socialisation process easier, as the environment will change from peaceful country to busy city life..
Multumesc Santos pt punctul de vedere, cred ca va fi cum a zis si Roger, sanse de 50/50 si voi vedea ce 'iese'.. Poti sa-mi sugerezi modalitati de socializare mai usoare, avand in vedere ca va trece de la o zona calma de tara, la un oras mare tipic zgomotos..
Post by: Man Stopper on July 19, 2010, 08:27:18 AM
Showing some Mad Maxx trait about him;an example is at the park 2 days ago, i had him free, when all of sudden he ran tail up, deep puppy barking and running towards a guy, who was 20 metres or so away... This freaked me out, as it was only our third outing, and so far so good 8-)
Am niste vesti excelente de impartasit, anume, am un nou masculutz.. dupa o sapt de cand il am pe Casso sunt f impresionat de caracterul lui...
Are niste trasaturi de 'Mad Max'; un exemplu, acum 2 zile cand eram cu el in parc, era liber nu in lesa, cand dintr-o data a luat-o la fuga latrand gros cu coada sus catre un tip, care era la vreo 20 metri distanta de noi... treaba asta m-a dat pe spate, pt ca era abia a 3a iesire afara, deci pana acum lucrurile arata bine 8-)
Post by: zimbris on July 19, 2010, 08:47:32 AM
Post by: Man Stopper on July 19, 2010, 08:58:37 AM
Some footage on you tube of pups barking "DDR WEST CZECH BLOODLINE"
Post by: zimbris on July 19, 2010, 10:40:01 AM
[youtube:3509lyd9]b_jWov0Fl88[/youtube:3509lyd9]
Post by: Man Stopper on July 19, 2010, 05:09:54 PM
Post by: zimbris on July 19, 2010, 11:51:21 PM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Thanks mate for that, as you guys know i'm an ameature on the PC...It's not hard Reg, in the youtube link (http://www.youtube.comblah (http://www.youtube.comblah) blah blah...) you can see the equal signs "="; you copy what follows after that equal and paste i between the square brackets you get after clicken on the youtube icon just above the reply typing box.