Post by: Man Stopper on December 31, 2010, 10:21:21 AM
What are the key signs of a dog in "Fight Drive" ?
Exista o definitie clara a "instinctului de lupta"?
Care sunt semnele clare ale unui caine intrat in "instinct de lupta"?
Post by: Zak on December 31, 2010, 10:29:30 AM
Hope you don't mind but why you ask and in what context?
Post by: zimbris on December 31, 2010, 10:43:25 AM
a fight takes place between two or more parts, it is an interaction, in which both prey and defence are involved, I truly believe you need both to build up drive. as far as dogs go, I believe you see that in how much the dog actually DESIRES to carry the fight, not just do it because it has to defend itself etc. Also I believe fight drive in a dog always comes with self-confidence and the signs to look for it would be the "classic" ones.. tail up, in fact pretty much everything is "vertical" when in a fight mood, in my own opinion. In my experience, the signs that always led to fight dominance were tail up, upright hair on the spine, low pitched growl and forward positioning of the body, no fear in taking the fight to the opponent.
getting back to the self-confidence bit - I believe a dog with good fight instinct shows good self confidence in general, not just in a state of conflict.
Banuiesc ca Dux si Santos vor oferi niste info de calitate dar asta e raspunsul cel mai bun pe care eu personal il pot da:
o lupta se duce intre 2 sau mai multe parti, este o interactiune, in care atat atacul cat si apararea sunt implicate, sincer cred ca e nevoie de amandoua pt a obtine pe cel de lupta. In privinta cainilor, cred ca poti "vedea" instinctul de lupta prin prisma DORINTEI manifestate de caine, de a duce lupta, nu doar sa lupte pt ca nu are de ales, trebuie sa se apere etc. Mai cred ca instinctul de lupta vine automat cu increderea de sine iar semnele prezentei inst. de lupta sunt cele "clasice", in opinia mea, coada ridicata,.. de fapt mai toate sunt "verticale" cand esti 'setat" pt lupta. Din ce am vazut pana in prezent, cainii cu instinct puternic de lupta pe care i-am notat aveau urmatoarele semne, coada sus, parul pe spate / ceafa ridicat/zburlit, marait gros si o postura de "inaintare", un fel de semn ca nu se teme de conflict, nu se teme sa duca lupta la adversar.
Legat de increderea de sine - cred ca un caine cu instinct bun de lupta arata incredere de sine in general, nu doar in situatii de conflict.
Post by: Man Stopper on December 31, 2010, 11:17:17 AM
On the other hand i believe a true desire of "Fight Drive"the dog does not switch back and forth from Defense Prey Defense Prey..
Have read many differant opinions on this area of Fight Drive ( desire to bring on the fight) not out of self preservation..
Would it be fair to say that Fight Drive is genetic and cannot be trained..?
Zak i feel that there is much confusion on the definition of Fight Drive, and would be good for us to share our views..
Post by: zimbris on December 31, 2010, 11:30:14 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Would it be fair to say that Fight Drive is genetic and cannot be trained..?
ar fi corect sa spunem ca un caine nu poate dobandi inst. de lupta prin dresaj, acesta este genetic..?
I quoted you on what I believe to be one of the key elements to do with fight drive. NO, fight drive cannot be trained into the dog, it's either there or not, just like looks I guess. or in the case of looks, let's say you can fix that through surgery but you will not pass to "progenies" :mrgreen:
cred ca un caine care manifesta inst de lupta bun, este un caine care de fapt arata si inst de prada bun. Si da si eu cred ca un caine care trece des dintr-un inst. in celalalt, in cazul unui singur conflict, are probleme cu increderea in sine si respectiv as spune, probleme la capitolul inst. de lupta.
Tin minte ca am mai purtat discutiile astea despre drive si in alte forumuri si multi spuneau ca apararea si lupta sunt unu si acelasi lucru - cu care afirmatie nu sunt de acord. daca ne gandim bine, de fapt apararea nu e departe de teama - o faci pt ca trebuie sa o faci, sau pt ca nu ai de ales.[/color]
Post by: Bogdan on December 31, 2010, 12:10:12 PM
Cine ne poate spune cand un caine lucreaza in prada si cand lucreaza in paza?
Cine ne poate spune ce predomina intr-un caine?
Cine poate spune toate astea cand are in fata un pui de 3-4 luni?
Prezenta instinctului de paza este necesara, dar la fel de necesara e cultivarea instinctului de prada pentru un caine utilitar.
Atentie, am spus utilitar, nu de paza. Pentru paza si atat sunt rase mai performante decat CG.
Intrebati la Iasi de ce au si Caucazieni pe langa casa.
Post by: zimbris on December 31, 2010, 12:30:20 PM
Nu poti trage linie in privinta instinctelor cand e vorba de un catel de 4 luni (...?) schimbari tot apar in primele luni de viata.
S-a tot discutat pe marginea astor lucruri in forumul celalat si erai si tu "prin zona" - anume - in cazul anumitor caini nu ai ce cultiva prin dresaj daca el genetic nu detine raportul de instincte necesar pt dresajul dorit.
Post by: Zak on December 31, 2010, 02:52:53 PM
I have never thought about it in the that context you raise but its clearly a very valid point you make and one that is complex.
I would be very interested in the opinions of our experienced members on this forrum.
Unfortunatley I am no expert but would suggest Dani has given I very logical expalanation which makes sense.
However in my own experience with my last dog Sam I found he was naturally by nature a soft/kind dog. Although he came from good breeding individually with proven offspring. But not from the same breeding together as it had never been done before. Therefore the genetics were there in both dogs. However the personality of this dog was such he lacked aggression but had good pray/play drive. He was a confident dog. He very rarely showed defence drive or fear in a different types of situations.
I know my experience of this one dog goes against what Dani is saying when he talks about genetics but I do agree with him in priincipal.
I find it hard to think how a dog can switch from one to the other in the same situation. I can understand how the can happen over a period of time with training when you start training a dog who is shy and defensive but when you start building his confidence starts to show aggression and thus a good fighting spirit as it thinks mentally it can win as it has been doing during training.
Post by: zimbris on December 31, 2010, 03:17:11 PM
Let's say you train a dog that genetically doesn't have very sharp fighting instinct and you gradually build up his confidence. But eventually, in a real life situation this dog comes across yet even bigger pressure and will not go all the way because, really, he is not genetically built for that.. I hope I am making sense.
But hear me say this - yes, you can "improve" the dog through good training, to some degree. BUT from a breeding stand point that equals .. nothing.. because what you put in the dog through training does not pass on to progenies, just like I stated in my first post in the topic.
Also... just to make sure - are you putting defense on the same level with fear..? I am just asking because you said:
"He very rarely showed defence drive or fear in a different types of situations."
Post by: Zak on December 31, 2010, 05:31:04 PM
But mother nature tells us genetics are a funny thing and unpredictable. We can aim to inhance certain qualities by trying to imprint certain characteristics through breeding selection. Certain breedings produce very good results while others leave us disappointed. Then by chance we can get the most amazing results from a breeding which are not necessarly from the sire or dam. This can be illustrated when people say "this dog/bitch is a producer" reffering to the fact the sire/dam might not be great but they can produce.
I was simply trying to highlight as individual dogs (ie the sire and dam to my old dog sam) they were good capable dogs. Both had produced good progenies but this mix did not.
Sorry no I was not putting defence on the same level as fear. What I was trying to say was he lacked the aggression and fighting spirit to defend his territory when some would enter it or showed aggression toward him or the handler.
But at the same time he did not ever show any fear thus bringing out any type of aggression due to fear and a need to fight rather than wanting to fight.
Does that make sense? coz even am getting confused :lol:
Post by: hardbite29 on December 31, 2010, 06:51:05 PM
Post by: zimbris on December 31, 2010, 11:17:17 PM
Post by: Man Stopper on January 01, 2011, 05:28:01 AM
Quote from: "hardbite29"
Very interesting however i do not believe fight drive can come to every dog and i my opinion it will come when the dog is mature and has the right type of training with balancing prey and defense and GENETICS without that forget fight drive, dogs which have a high prey drive will also develop fight drive easier as well as dogs who are dominant in temperament will develop it also.
My view is that fight drive is there from the start and 'only' then can it be developed.
Whats the difference with between a high prey drive dog and the defensive type when it comes to the final result when fully matured.
Does one of these opposite traits perform better than the other..?
Post by: Santos on January 01, 2011, 07:40:53 AM
guard instinct is hereditary trait but breeding and training type are also important. I also breed Caucasian Ovcharka as well as other 4 different dog breeds (Labrador, Golden Retriever and Westies among them) but not for guarding purposes but for commercial reasons. The GS dog is a polyvalent dog or at least it's supposed to be
Post by: Bogdan on January 01, 2011, 09:20:20 AM
Quote from: "Santos"
instinctul de paza este ereditar dar conteaza si modul cum este crescut si dresat cainele Eu cresc si ciobanesc caucazian pe langa alte 4 rase de caini (labrador golden westi.) dar nu pentru paza ci din punct de vedere comercial Ciobanescul german este un caine polivalent dar este si un caine de paza sau asa ar trebui sa fie
Sunt sigur ca nu folosesti Caucazienii ca sa-ti pazeasca Ciobanestii Germani, dar exista un segment de piata care cere doar paza de la caine si e mai simplu cu un caucazian decat cu un CG.
Ma bucura confirmarea ta cu privire la modul de crestere si la influenta lui asupra evolutiei cainelui la maturitate.
Un an nou fericit va doresc tuturor!
I am sure you are not using your Caucasian dogs to guard the GSD's, but there is that market segment which only demands the guarding aspect in a dog and the first choice would most likely be the Caucasian, over the GS dog.
I am glad you confirm the importance of the breeding style and the way that impacts the dog later in adult life.
Let me wish you all a happy new year!
Post by: Zak on January 02, 2011, 10:30:20 AM
I would very much like to read their views on this subject.
Post by: Bogdan on January 02, 2011, 01:12:45 PM
Quote from: "Bogdan"
Instinctele sunt prin definitie mostenite genetic. Dar asta nu ne opreste sa le cultivam sau sa le distrugem prin dresaj.
Cine ne poate spune cand un caine lucreaza in prada si cand lucreaza in paza?
Cine ne poate spune ce predomina intr-un caine?
Cine poate spune toate astea cand are in fata un pui de 3-4 luni?
Prezenta instinctului de paza este necesara, dar la fel de necesara e cultivarea instinctului de prada pentru un caine utilitar.
Atentie, am spus utilitar, nu de paza. Pentru paza si atat sunt rase mai performante decat CG.
Intrebati la Iasi de ce au si Caucazieni pe langa casa.
Instincts are by definition inherited. But that's not stopping us to cultivate them or destroy them through training.
Who can tell when a dog works in prey and when they work in deffence?
Who can say what instincts prevails in a dog?
Who can say when all this when he locks at a pup of 3-4 months?
The deffence instinct is a must, but equally necessary is growing prey instinct for a working dog.
If I say working, not guarding. For guarding there is races that are better than GSD.
Ask Santos why he is growing also Caucasian.
Post by: Bogdan on January 02, 2011, 01:14:02 PM
Quote from: "Zak"
Sorry to sound disrespectful but could someone(Dani) kindly transalte the last two post by Santos and Bogdan.
I would very much like to read their views on this subject.
Sory Zak, but sometimes I don,t have time for english.
Post by: Man Stopper on January 10, 2011, 08:42:55 AM
Quote from: "Bogdan"
Quote from: "Bogdan"Instincts are by definition inherited. But that's not stopping us to cultivate them or destroy them through training.
Who can tell when a dog works in prey and when they work in deffence?
Who can say what instincts prevails in a dog?
Who can say when all this when he locks at a pup of 3-4 months?
The deffence instinct is a must, but equally necessary is growing prey instinct for a working dog.
If I say working, not guarding. For guarding there is races that are better than GSD.
Less training will decrease the chances of spoiling the dog IMO.
I think that very few trainers can give a true evaluation of the dogs body language and tone of bark, at a mature age that is..
I agree that slight defense is good, especially in guarding object/personal protection.
What do you guys think of a dog who is sent out on a search in a factory yard at night, would this dog need something more than prey ?
And would it be fair to say that the K9 should not have any defensive signs in that situation, in order to have the desire to win the fight..
Have read many differant versions of what fight drive means, and there really is NO single definition..ITs all bloody
Check out this on You Tube of Dares Geradonu CS, and would be interesting on what you guys think of this dog, basically what drive does this dog work in ?
Post by: hardbite29 on January 10, 2011, 11:01:32 PM
[youtube:nc098ugo]1VQcAE9ZkHo[/youtube:nc098ugo]
Post by: guest on January 11, 2011, 01:12:50 PM
Hope it will help.
Post by: Man Stopper on January 13, 2011, 06:50:59 AM
And wanted to also ask, do you guys think that Manus van Tiekerhook is also a prey driven dog ?
IMO Manus has more intensity, which gives me the impression that Manus has that extra desire to compete(fight drive) when pushed..
The guest speaker feels that its a well balanced dog who has no defence drive and can be turned into a 'prey monster' ..!
But can he be turned into a "FIGHT DRIVE MONSTER"
???
Post by: Frantic on June 20, 2013, 12:53:17 PM
Helmut Raiser's View on Which Drives Are Useful During Protection Training
by Armin Winkler
Prey-drive, defense-drive, fighting-drive, etc. are the catch phrases of modern protection training. They are thrown around at every seminar we attend, they are the subjects of countless articles, but rarely do people agree on what is being said about these "drives." About 20 years ago Helmut Raiser revolutionized Schutzhund protection training by identifying which inborn motivations (drives) are stimulated in the different phases of training. He did not just assign specific names to these motivations, he combined years of practical experience and research with the clinical studies and their results of such behaviourial giants like Brunner, Hediger, Lorenz, Most, and Trummler among others, to determine on a scientific level what drives are and how they fit into protection training. Without any further introduction, let me summarize his findings from his now famous book Der Schutzhund.
Prey Drive
Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted. Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken. These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog. Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more." Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game.
Defense Drive
Defense drive counts as one of the dog's aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours. Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression. The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener. Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense. The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour. Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will. It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog. Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened. The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour. Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies). Author's note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is. Defense is one part of protection training. The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.
Aggression Drive
Aggression behaviour contains reactive aggression (defense) as well as active aggression (social aggression). With all the different theories that exist about aggression, there still is no conclusive proof available as to whether or not genuine spontaneous aggression exists. The three theories about where aggression comes from are:
Aggression is learned.
Aggression is created by negative experiences.
Aggression is inborn.
The truth is probably that aggression results from all three processes. Research is available to support all three theories. For our purposes however, we should concern ourselves less with where aggression comes from and more with what triggers it, what its goal is, and what its biological significance is. The triggers for reactive aggression (defense) was covered under the previous heading. So, lets deal with active aggression. It is always intraspecific, meaning social aggression, and is the result of competition over things (territory, food, mates, etc.). Intraspecific aggression is activated by rivals, and by anti-social behaviour. The goal of the drive is to cause avoidance, submission, or worse of the rival. Biological significance is the even distribution of a species over available land to reduce the possibility of food shortages and epidemics as well as survival of a species and a pack by selecting the fittest animals for reproduction and as leaders. In species with a social hierarchy behaviours developed from the aggressive drive, which limit the negative results and guarantee the positive results of social aggression such as threatening, dominance, submission, and rituals of non-physical combat.
Aggression increases through maturation and practise. It can also be increased or decreased through training and through external influences, for example pain can be aggression stimulating. Other factors which affect aggressive behaviour are location and hormone levels. Two factors which affect aggression that a protection helper needs to be aware of are: personal acquaintance blocks aggression; and passive acceptance of a dog's aggression impresses a dog deeply and causes unsureness.
A negative side effect of aggression in dog training is that it greatly reduces the dog's learning ability.
Author's note: We all want to see our dogs work aggressively against the "bad guy," but we need to keep in mind that that is the final picture we want to see. Too often high quality dogs don't reach their potential because their owners want to see them aggressive right from the start, forgetting about the fact that the dog has to learn many intricate exercises before he can walk onto the competition field. So if possible teach the dog an exercise first, then make him perform it aggressively.
Fighting Drive
Again the question of whether or not an independent fighting drive exists has not yet been answered. Some dog-experts feel that a fighting drive must exist and that it is related to the play drive. The term fighting drive is an oxymoron. It combines the word drive refers to an inherited trait which serves to preserve life and species, with the word fight which refers to physical combat. A drive to fight would then be an internal motivation which leads the animal into a potentially harmful situation. But even in social aggression the non-physical ritualistic showdowns are much more common than the injurious physical fights. However, that argument aside, the term fighting drive is a useful description of a desirable behaviour in the dog. We want to see a dog who has fun fighting with the helper. But only a dog who doesn't feel like he is fighting for his life can be unstressed and have fun. Therefore I (Raiser) feel that fighting drive is an extension of prey drive.
What qualities make up good fighting drive - meaning the spontaneity? Practical experience has shown that dogs who work primarily in as a result of their defensive drive may still lack fighting drive. Dogs like that then often fail to engage the helper if he does not present any defensive stimuli, but work confidently while under threat. The desire to "seek the fight" is an essential ingredient of fighting drive. In all dogs with pronounced fighting drive, I also found pronounced prey drive. Making prey is a passionate activity which does not stress the dog. However, prey drive alone is not equal to fighting drive, the dog also has to use defense behaviour. The fundamental component of fighting drive is the active part of the aggressive drive, social aggression. Therefore, the dog must always see the helper as a rival. The object of competition could vary: it could be the prey (hence the relation to prey drive); or it could be social rank, which works well with dominant dogs. So in order to increase fighting drive, we have to promote prey drive, build up defense drive, and strengthen aggression by teaching the dog that he can defeat and dominate the helper. This should make it very clear that as much as fighting drive is a very desirable quality, one cannot expect to see it fully developed in a one year old dog.
Author's note: Do your dogs a favour and help them develop all the components that make up good fighting drive, rather than waiting until it magically appears out of thin air because the dog should have "it" naturally.
What impresses me about the discussion of drives every time I read Helmut Raiser's book is that he simply dissects the material on a scientific basis. He does not try to make the theory fit his practical techniques, on the contrary he willingly admits to his own past mistakes, and tries to improve his practical skill by better understanding the theory behind it. I will probably summarize the practical applications of these theories at some time in the future. For people who can't wait, the full length version is available in my translation of the book Der Schutzhund.
Post by: Frantic on June 20, 2013, 12:58:52 PM
Punctul de vedere al lui Helmut Raiser asupra instinctelor necesare pentru dreajul de protectie
de Armin Winkler
Instinctul de prada, instinctul de aparare, instinctul de lupta, etc. sunt sloganurile antrenamentului de protectie modern. Sunt aruncate in discutie la fiecare seminar unde participam, fac obiectul a nenumarate articole, dar foarte rar oamenii cad de acord in ceea ce priveste inseamnatatea acestor instincte. Cu 20 de ani in urma, Helmut Raiser a revolutionat antrenamentul de protectie Schutzhund identificand care motivatii native(drive-uri/instincte) sunt stimulate in diferite faze ale antrenamentului. El nu s-a limitat la a acorda diferite denumiri acestor motivatii, ci a combinat anii de zile de experiente practice si cercetare cu studii clinice ale caror rezultate au fost giganti precum Brunner, Hediger, Lorenz, Most si Trummler, pentru a determina la un nivel stiintific care sunt acele instincte si cum isi au ele aplicabilitate in antrenament. Fara alte parlamentari, voi prezenta in ceea ce urmeaza concluziile sale din celebra carte Der Schutzhund.
Instinctul de prada
Instinctul de prada face parte din activitatea specifica procurarii hranei. Pentru un animal de prada asta inseamna tot ce tine de tehnicile de vanatoare si ucidere. Urmarirea, depistarea (se refera cand cainele de vanatoare scoate prada din ascunzis), insfacarea, muscarea, scuturarea pana la moarte sunt cele mai importante tehnici cand vorbim despre antrenamentul de protectie. Ca sa putem stimula aceste tehnici instinctive la caine, trebuie sa cunoastem ce reactie are un animal pradat cand este vanat. Prada se afla intotdeauan in miscare, recurge la miscari de eschiva si este coplesita de panica. Aceste miscari declanseaza de cealalta parte la caine, actiuni precum urmarirea, depistarea, muscarea, tragerea, scuturarea pana la moarte. Instinctul de prada este nativ si este antrenabil, asta insemnand ca poate fi amplificat sau inhibat. Instinctul de prada poate fi epuizat, ceea ce inseamna ca va veni un moment in care cainele nu va mai dori sa afiseze conduita dorita. Nota autorului: Luand in consideratie efectele serioase ale rezultatului final ale acestui instinct asupra unui animal vanat, nu sunt de accord cu ideea ca munca in prada este doar un joc prostesc.
Instinctul de aparare
Instinctul de aparare este doar una dintre partile componente ale comportamentelor de tip agresiv ale cainelui si se poate manifesta alaturi de alte astfel de comportamente. Amenintarea, fixarea cu privirea si muscatul sunt reactii tipice defensive. Instinctul de aparare este declansat in general de amenintari, fie ele reale sau inchipuite sau de o agresiune directa. Scopul instinctului de aparare este sa provoace o atitudine de evitare a conflictului din partea atentatorului. Instinctul de aparare poate aparea sub forma instinctului de aparare a pradei, a puilor, a teritoriului, impotriva necunoscutului/nefamiliarului sau ca instinct de autoaparare. Instinctul este satisfacut in toate cazurile cand atentatorul isi manifesta intentiea de a evita conflictul. Instinctul de aparare nu este supus epuizarii, deci poate fi declansat oricand, de aceea trebuie sa faca parte din spiritul de lupta al oricarui caine de lucru. Mai mult decat atat, este factorul determinant pornirii de a contra cand este supus unui stres sau amenintat. Marele pericol, in ceea ce priveste un caine supus muncii in aparare, este acela ca aceiasi stimuli care actioneaza asupra instinctului de aparare, actioneaza si asupra instinctului de a evita conflictul. Care dintre cele doua instincte este manifestat de catre cainele supus unuia dintre cele doua tipuri de stimulenti depinde de o serie de factori, printre ele se numara increderea in sine si temperamentul cainelui , atentatorul, experientele anterioare din viata cainelui, varsta si maturitate cainelui, locatia (loc strain sau proprietatea familiei), distanta dintre adversari, precum si prezenta altor influente externe (prada, partener, pui). Nota autorului: Trag speranta ca astfel am reusit sa trag un semnal de alarma in ceea ce priveste apararea, si anume ca este o arma cu doua taisuri. Apararea este o parte componenta a dresajului de protectie. Ideea conform careia un caine bun trebuie lucrat doar in ceea ce priveste apararea este periculoasa si a avut efecte nefaste asupra multor caini buni.
Instinctul agresiv
Comportamentul agresiv este compus dintr-o reactie agresiva (aparare) si o agresiune directa/activa (agresiune sociala). Cu toate ca exista multe teorii privind agresiunea cainelui, nu exista o dovada concludenta in ceea ce priveste existenta agresiunii spontane autentice. Cele trei teorii privind izvorul ahresiunii sunt:
- agresiunea se invata;
- agresiunea este creata de experiente negative;
- agresiunea este nativa.
Adevarul este ca agresiunea rezulta din toate aceste procese enumerate. Cercetarea disponibila vine sa sustina toate aceste teorii. Dar, pentru scopul nostru propus, ne vom ocupa mai putin cu izvorul agresiunii si mai mult cu ce anume declanseaza agresiunea, care este scopul sau si care este insemnatatea(importanta) sa biologica. Declansatorii pentru agresiunea reactiva (apararea) au fost dezbatuti in paragraful de mai sus. De aceea, ne vom ocupa cu agresiunea activa/directa. Este intotdeauna intraspecifica (in cadrul speciei), si anume agresiune sociala, si este rezultatul competitiei asupra lucrurilor (teritoriu, mancare, partener, etc.). Agresiunea intraspecifica este activate de catre rivali si de comportamentul antisocial. Scopul instinctului este sa cauzeze evitare, supunere sau chiar mai rau asupra rivalului. Din punct de vedere biologic, are insemnatate deoarece distribuirea in mod egal a unei specii asupra unei intinderi de teritoriu are scopul de a reduce probabilitatea lipsei hranei, a epidemiilor, precum si supravietuirea unei specii sau a unei haite prin selectarea numai a exemplarelor ideale pentru reproductie si ca liderilLa speciile cu comportament de tip social ierarhic dobandit in urma instinctului agresiv, care elimina rezultatele negative si garanteaza rezultate pozitive ale agresiunii sociale, cum ar fi amenintarea, dominarea, supunerea si ritualuri ce nu implica lupta fizica.
Agresiunea sporeste odata cu maturizarea si exercitiul. De asemenea, ea poate fi sporita sau domolita prin antrenament sau influente externe, de exemplu durerea, care poate fi un stimulent agresiv. Alti factori care afecteaza comportamentul agresiv sunt locatia si nivelul hormonilor. Alti doi factori care sporesc agresiunea si la care trebuie sa fie atent orice atentator: cunoasterea personala blocheaza agresiunea si acceptarea pasiva a agresiunii cainelui il impresioneaza pe acesta si ii cauzeaza nesiguranta.
O latura negativa a antrenamentului pentru agresiune este aceea ca reduce faorte mult dresabilitatea.
Nota autorului: Cu totii ne dorim sa ne vedem cainii cum reactioneaza agresiv fata de “omul rau”, dar trebuie sa fim constienti ca acest lucru trebuie sa fie imaginea de final. Mult prea des caini de o calitate extraordinara nu-si ating potentialul pentru ca proprietarii isi doresc sa-i vada agresivi inca de la inceput, uitand astfel faptul ca patrupedul va avea de invatat o gramada de exercitii complexe/complicate inainte de a pasi pe terenul competitional. Pe cat este posibil, invatati-l pe caine exercitiul mai intai, dupa care determinati-l sa il execute agresiv.
Instinctul de lupta
Nici aici nu a fost gasit un raspuns la intrebarea daca instinctul de lupta independent exista sau nu. Unii experti canini considera ca instinctul de lupta ar trebui sa existe si ca este in stransa legatura cu instinctul de prada. Termenul instinct de lupta este un oximoron. Combina cuvantul instinct care se refera la o trasatura mostenita care deserveste perpetuarii speciei, cu cuvantul lupta care se refera la un duel fizic. In atare situatie, instinct de lupta ar trebui sa fie o motivatie interna care induce animalul intr-o situatie care l-ar putea vatama. Dar chiar si in cazul agresivitatii sociale demonstratiile ritualistice non-fizice sunt mult mai dese decat luptele fizice cu vatamari. Cu toate astea, lasand la o parte acel argument, termenul instinct de lupta este o descriere utila a unui comportament dorit al cainelui. Vrem sa vedem un caine caruia ii face placere sa lupte cu atentatorul. Dar numai un caine care nu simte ca se lupta pentru propria viata poate sa fie calm si sa-i faca placere. De aceea eu (Raiser) consider ca instinctul de lupta este o extensie a instinctului de prada.
Care sunt acele calitati care determina un instinct de lupta bun – in sensul de spontaneitate? Experienta practica mi-a aratat ca acei caini care lucreaza in prima faza ca urmare a instinctului de aparare pot duce lipsa de instinct de lupta. Se intampla des cu cainii de acest tip sa nu atace atentatorul daca acesta nu exercita un stimul de aparare, dar lucreaza cu incredere sub amenintare. Dorinta de “a cauta lupta” este un ingredient esential al instinctului de lupta. La toti cainii la care am intalnit instinct de lupta, am intalnit si un puternic instinct de prada. A vana este activitate pasionala care nu streseaza cainele. Cu toate acestea, instinctul de prada nu inseamna si instinct de lupta, pentru asta e nevoie si de conduita defensiva. Componenta fundamentala a instinctului de lupta este partea activa a instinctului agresiv, agresiunea sociala. Asadar, cainele trebuie sa vada in atentator intoteauna un rival. Motivul competitiei poate varia: poate fi prada (de aici si relatia cu instinctul de prada) sau poate fi poziti sociala (ierarhia), care merge ca unsa la cainii dominanti. Deci, pentru a spori instinctul de lupta, trebuie sa promovam instinctul de prada, sa cimentam isntinctul de aparare si sa intarim agresiunea prin invatarea cainelui ca poate sa invinga si sa domine atentatorul. De aici ar trebui sa reiasa foarte clar ca, desi instinctul de lupta este o calitate foarte dorita, ea nu poate fi observata la potential maxim la un caine cu varsta de un an.
Nota autorului: Faceti un favor cainilor vostri si ajutati-i sa-si dezvolte toate componentele care insumeaza un instinct de lupta si nu stati in expectativa in speranta ca va iesi la suprafata ca printr-un miracol pentru ca il detine in mod natural cainele.
Ceea ce ma impresioneaza de fiecare data cand citesc cartea lui Helmut Raiser este faptul observ ca el diseca materialul din punct de vedere stiintific in ceea ce privesc instinctele. Nu incearca sa faca teoriile sa aiba aplicabilitate in practica, din contra chiar, el singur admite greselile pe care le-a facut de-a lungul timpului si inceraca sa-si imbunatateasca abilitatile practice prin intelegerea cat mai completa a teoriei din spate.
Post by: ben on June 20, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
Quote
Dar numai un caine care nu simte ca se lupta pentru propria viata poate sa fie calm si sa-i faca placere. De aceea eu (Raiser) consider ca instinctul de lupta este o extensie a instinctului de prada.Departe de mine gandul ca stapanesc in mica masura cunostintele in domeniu ale lui Raiser, dar pt mine nu prea se leaga afirmatiile astea. SINGURUL element care ma atrag catre subiectul asta si care ma face sa cred ca intr-adevar totusi stiu ceva (sau cateodata simt, nu neaparat stiu, ca si informatie) este Ben. Lui cand i se aprindeau licuricii, nu se intampla pt ca vroia sa "vaneze", ci pt ca, fie i-am cerut-o eu, fie a vazut in cineva o amenintare.
Ii dau mare dreptate in privinta primei parti, se "lupta" calm pt ca nu se simte in pericol (am tot spus ca asta inseamna sportul - o rutina, un regulament). Insa as inlocui termenul "lupta" cu "joaca"; atunci cand, de exemplu, cainele "lupta" cu mansonul/bratul atentatorului, eu zic ca se JOACA cu mansonul respectiv.
Dar nu sunt intocmai de acord cu a 2a afirmatie din citat; eu inteleg prin prada cainele care vaneaza - iar vanatul FUGE, nu LUPTA. De luptat, in adevaratul sens al cuvantului, lupta un animal care se simte amenintat sau care vrea sa se impuna/domine, care ia lucrurile in serios. Este parerea mea, nu judecand doar prin prisma elementelor de dresaj canin sau a cainilor in general, ci si a altor animale (de prada) sau prin chiar definitia termenilor (prada, lupta, etc). Sa scurtez, NU sunt de acord ca lupta e o extensie a pradei.
Quote
Nota autorului: Faceti un favor cainilor vostri si ajutati-i sa-si dezvolte toate componentele care insumeaza un instinct de lupta si nu stati in expectativa in speranta ca va iesi la suprafata ca printr-un miracol pentru ca il detine in mod natural cainele.Interpretabila asta... eu chiar m-am gandit mult la aspectul asta, in ultima vreme si simt ca imi scapa ceva.. Sunt foarte tentat sa cred, in momentul de fazta, ca modul in care iti cresti cainele in primii 2 sau 3 ani de viata au un rol mai important decat am crezut eu pana acum, in formarea caracterului. Insa Raiser, trebuie sa spun asta, vorbeste exact cum vorbesc majoritatea nemtilor, despre cainii de lupta. Am fost la o canisa in Germania acum 4 ani (parca) si crescatorul imi spunea ca "toti sunt buni". Un "favor" pe care-l faci cainelui este, eventual, ca il lucrezi, are ce face ca luptator nu scoti dintr-un caine prin antrenamente oricat ai munci; daca genetic e facut sa fie mamaliga, mamaliga o sa fie. Da, il poti face sa "lupte" asa cum le-a gandit probabil Raiser, pe mansonul de pe bratul atentatorului.
Nu stiu, poate sunt eu prea abrupt in gandire, dar faza asta cu "cainele il ai asa cum ti-l cresti" nu prea are inteles pt mine; il poti educa pana la un punct, functie de cat ii permite potentialu. De dresat MULTI isi dreseaza cainii si lucreaza "frumos" dar in realitate tot "pet"-uri raman (ceea ce e ok, pt "omul de rand", nu toata lumea vrea caine care merge la pas cu privirea sus).
Quote
Cu toate acestea, instinctul de prada nu inseamna si instinct de lupta, pentru asta e nevoie si de conduita defensiva. Componenta fundamentala a instinctului de lupta este partea activa a instinctului agresiv, agresiunea sociala. Asadar, cainele trebuie sa vada in atentator intoteauna un rival. Motivul competitiei poate varia: poate fi prada (de aici si relatia cu instinctul de prada) sau poate fi poziti sociala (ierarhia), care merge ca unsa la cainii dominanti. Deci, pentru a spori instinctul de lupta, trebuie sa promovam instinctul de prada, sa cimentam isntinctul de aparare si sa intarim agresiunea prin invatarea cainelui ca poate sa invinga si sa domine atentatorul. De aici ar trebui sa reiasa foarte clar ca, desi instinctul de lupta este o calitate foarte dorita, ea nu poate fi observata la potential maxim la un caine cu varsta de un an.Imi place cum le despacheteaza aici!
Un luptator se naste, nu il faci. Parerea mea.. "care este"..
Post by: Frantic on June 21, 2013, 10:40:13 AM
Dar numai un caine care nu simte ca se lupta pentru propria viata poate sa fie calm si sa-i faca placere. De aceea eu (Raiser) consider ca instinctul de lupta este o extensie a instinctului de prada.Ce vrea sa spuna Raiser aici este ca ochiul lumii este incantat de o lupta a cainelui cu atentatorul, dar aceasta nu trebuie sa fie o imagine frumoasa, ci ea trebuie sa fie pentru caine o stiuatie cat se poate de serioasa.
Vrea sa scoata in evidenta faptul ca un caine care simte ca lupta cu adevarat, nu va fi calm niciodata, nu are voie sa fie calm in lupta. Indiferent de ce o face, indiferent pentru ce percepe el ca lupta, el nu are cum sa fie calm. Pentru el exista acea miza, iar acea miza trebuie sa o cuantifice cu unitatea de masura a propriei vieti.
Dar nu sunt intocmai de acord cu a 2a afirmatie din citat; eu inteleg prin prada cainele care vaneaza - iar vanatul FUGE, nu LUPTA. De luptat, in adevaratul sens al cuvantului, lupta un animal care se simte amenintat sau care vrea sa se impuna/domine, care ia lucrurile in serios. Este parerea mea, nu judecand doar prin prisma elementelor de dresaj canin sau a cainilor in general, ci si a altor animale (de prada) sau prin chiar definitia termenilor (prada, lupta, etc). Sa scurtez, NU sunt de acord ca lupta e o extensie a pradei.Nu este numai o extensie a pradei, el chiar spunea ca in perceptia luptei (ca si sinapsa) cainelui sunt inglobate si celelalte instincte, asa ca nu trebuie sa ramai ancorat pe o singura componenta a unui lucru complex. Pe de alta parte, intr-adevar, inainte de a ajunge un animal de prada in postura de a lupta, mai intai trebuie sa se hraneasca, iar pentru asta trebuie sa munceasca catva si poate ca de aici porneste in faza incipienta instinctul de lupta, de la prada. Mai departe, ca orice alta trasatura, el trebuie dezvoltat si perfectionat, iar acolo isi dau concursul si celelalte instincte.
Sunt foarte tentat sa cred, in momentul de fazta, ca modul in care iti cresti cainele in primii 2 sau 3 ani de viata au un rol mai important decat am crezut eu pana acum, in formarea caracterului.Fara doar si poate, suntem perfect de acord aici. Cel mai usor se observa acest lucru la "cainii vanduti unor doamne"...Orice potential ar avea cainele acela, el va ramane un caine neexploatat, iar acesta este cazul pozitiv. Cazul negativ, cainele va fi returnat canisei pentru ca nu reuseste sa-l supuna sau mai rau chiar, ataca un membru al familiei. Acesta ar fi exemplul cel mai usor de inteles de toata lumea.
In ceea ce priveste pe cei mai avansati (chiar profesionisti), pot aparea probleme de socializare sau lipsa acesteia si de dresaj si asta s-a intamplat chiar si la crescatori experimentati, as enumera aici cazuri cum ar fi cele cand au avut probleme cu puii din partea unor catele; sau unii caini, la un moment dat, se blocheaza in dresaj si nu te mai poti intelege cu ei, chiar Raiser spunea ca sporirea agresivitatii duce la diminuarea capacitatii de a invata, a dresabilitatii, de aici este foarte usor de dedus faptul ca daca lucrezi cainii foarte mult pentru agresiune, vor deveni mai putin dresabili in timp. Toate aceste lucruri, consider ca sunt greseli survenite pe seama cresterii pe alocuri defectuoase a cainilor.
Interpretabila asta... eu chiar m-am gandit mult la aspectul asta, in ultima vreme si simt ca imi scapa ceva..Nota bene: Nota autorului se refera la aprecierile personale ale autorului articolului, si anume Armin Winkler, sunt anumite comentarii ale acestuia aduse pe marginea spuselor lui Raiser.
Insa Raiser, trebuie sa spun asta, vorbeste exact cum vorbesc majoritatea nemtilor[...]
Am fost la o canisa in Germania acum 4 ani (parca) si crescatorul imi spunea ca "toti sunt buni".Acest lucru se intalneste la toate canisele, pe cat este de normal, pe atat este de anormal. :)
Toti trebuie sa-si vanda marfa, important e tu daca stii ce cauti si stii sa vezi acel lucru in caine, vei sti ce alegere sa faci.
Concluzie personala: Exista unele teorii in privinta diferentei dintre liniile vestice, estice si cehesti. Unii s-au aventurat chiar sa dea si procente si am identificat aici ceva de genul:
- vestica 100% prada, 0% aparare
- estica 80% aparare, 20% prada, alte pareri dau 50% aparare si 50% prada
- ceheasca 80% prada, 10% aparare, 10% agresiune sociala sau 70/20/10
Daca este sa plecam de la aceste teorii, as spune ca pentru mine cainele ideal este cel cehesc, din liniile vechi. Daca este sa coroboram cu cele spuse de Raiser, intrucat din liniile vestice lipsesc cu desavarsire instinctele de aparare si social agresiv, iar din cele estice cel privind agresiunea sociala, ar insemna ca un caine aproape de ideal ar fi un caine din vechile linii cehesti. Bineinteles ca fiecare stie ce-si doreste de la cainele sau, dar daca ti-ai dori "the full package", ar trebui sa stii inspre ce sa te indrepti.
Post by: ben on June 21, 2013, 11:56:20 AM
Cand am ceva timp voi citi mai atent toata marfa de mai sus, poate am citit eu gresit (am citit pe fuga) pt ca vad ca imi explici pe ici pe colo ce a vrut sa zica Raiser.
Este un subiect bun, interesant, sper sa se implice mai multi, sa ia parte la dialog.
Post by: Frantic on June 21, 2013, 12:09:41 PM
Post by: dux on June 21, 2013, 12:54:38 PM
Faceti un favor cainilor vostri si ajutati-i sa-si dezvolte toate componentele care insumeaza un instinct de lupta si nu stati in expectativa in speranta ca va iesi la suprafata ca printr-un miracol pentru ca il detine in mod natural cainele.Nu sunt deloc de acord cu ce se spune aici.Am vazut multi caini ciobanesti germani de-a lungul anilor.Acei caini care erau foarte buni in paza si protectie,culmea,erau caini cu care nu s-a facut nimic special privind tehnicile de dresaj.Erau cainii de familie ai unor oameni.Si dimpotriva,am vazut caini care au trecut prin toate etapele tehnice de instruire,care aveau Schutzhund-uri si selectie clasaI si erau varza.Eu sustin in continuare faptul ca genetica este primordiala pentru a crea un caine bun de protectie.Dresorul doar modeleaza ceea ce are genetic cainele.
Post by: ben on June 21, 2013, 12:59:25 PM
Nu sunt deloc de acord cu ce se spune aici.Bun, hai ca avem "directie".. ma gandeam ca poate vorbesc aiurea contrazicand un nume "greu" precum Raiser.
Post by: Frantic on June 21, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
Nu sunt deloc de acord cu ce se spune aici.Am vazut multi caini ciobanesti germani de-a lungul anilor.Acei caini care erau foarte buni in paza si protectie,culmea,erau caini cu care nu s-a facut nimic special privind tehnicile de dresaj.Erau cainii de familie ai unor oameni.Si dimpotriva,am vazut caini care au trecut prin toate etapele tehnice de instruire,care aveau Schutzhund-uri si selectie clasaI si erau varza.Eu sustin in continuare faptul ca genetica este primordiala pentru a crea un caine bun de protectie.Dresorul doar modeleaza ceea ce are genetic cainele.Acela era sfatul dat de Winkler, nu de Raiser. Dar el nu a combatut faptul ca nu ar exista natural in caine agresivitatea, ci doar incurajeaza omul sa-i cultive instinctele cainelui, nu sa astepte sa le manifeste cainele. Daca vrei un fel de "pune mana si munceste campul, daca vrei sa culegi roadele!".
Post by: ben on June 21, 2013, 01:04:36 PM
Acela era sfatul dat de Winkler, nu de Raiser. Dar el nu a combatut faptul ca nu ar exista natural in caine agresivitatea, ci doar incurajeaza omul sa-i cultive instinctele cainelui, nu sa astepte sa le manifeste cainele. Daca vrei un fel de "pune mana si munceste campul, daca vrei sa culegi roadele!".Frate.. Ben al meu nu a trecut prin maini de dresori si in ziua de azi ar bate la ceureu sute de caini titrati in lucru; iar asta se datoreaza doar geneticii.
Post by: guest on June 21, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
- estica 80% aparare, 20% prada, alte pareri dau 50% aparare si 50% pradaSange estic inseamna SI sange cehesc. Sangele estic se "imparte" in doua categorii, cehesc si DDR. Sangele cehesc are la baza sange DDR.
- ceheasca 80% prada, 10% aparare, 10% agresiune sociala sau 70/20/10
Post by: ben on June 21, 2013, 01:05:34 PM
Sange estic inseamna SI sange cehesc. Sangele estic se "imparte" in doua categorii, cehesc si DDR. Sangele cehesc are la baza sange DDR.Word.
Post by: Frantic on June 21, 2013, 01:09:24 PM
Cartea nu stiu exact pe parcursul a cator ani a fost scrisa, dar ea a fost publicata in 1981. In aceeasi masura, nu stiu cand a tradus-o Winkler in engleza, dar a fost publicata in 1996.
In articolul de mai sus, unde scrie nota autorului, este vorba de opiniile lui Winkler, restul textului apartine lui Raiser. Asta ca sa nu se faca confuzie intre cei doi.
Post by: ben on June 21, 2013, 01:10:31 PM
Post by: Frantic on June 21, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
Sange estic inseamna SI sange cehesc. Sangele estic se "imparte" in doua categorii, cehesc si DDR. Sangele cehesc are la baza sange DDR.Merci, on topic.