Post by: Man Stopper on January 21, 2010, 09:51:02 AM
Even though you might get some faults and crap, i still think its worth it in my opinion... Sire X daughter, and especially Uncle X niece is the one i would consider first.. Just looking through many different combinations, to see if there is some kind of pattern that breeders are trying to use and create for there long term breeding.. Eg; i study lines from Ex Reidstern and see what was produced and was it by chance or intentionally thru selective linebreeding..
Still learning the DDR lines system and how important it is to those who's aim is to breed, just like they did in the old days... I at times go back and study the Ali v Granert and the Barry Andeshoffer etc... offspring and where that lead to, but it just ends up confusing me :)
Post by: zimbris on January 22, 2010, 04:14:37 AM
Well so far I try and learn from what others have done in the past. As far as the DDR lines go, I think the path is getting narrower with time. I managed to find some dogs I like but they're all the way in the States!! Even so, I would like to get a close look in real life, not just based on the pedigree. I have a 'thing' for the dogs who have the 'crazy' Zorro on both parents' side. Like yourself, I'm still learning, but I tell you what I am beginning to see - combination of west and east lines! Some of the best dogs out there come from such breedings. I am for Line / In Breeding too, but one has to be careful with these things eventually. I think at this point in time I would try and mix as much different blood as possible - that is why, if you lived any closer to Romania - I would have bred Axa to Onyx!!!
Give a few more years and I will know better what to say. I am still learning...
Post by: Johnsk9 on January 31, 2010, 04:48:23 PM
These gave good dogs
In fosta RDG se practica des consangvinizarea stransa, Held ritterberg a fost montat cu mama sa Burga haus Himple si isis Ritterberg erau 2 produsi dintr-o astfel de monta care la randul lor au fost montati cu sora /respectiv/ fratele lui Held. Iata un astfel de tabel
Acestia au dat caini buni.
(http://http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/johnsDDR/ps000118.jpg)
Post by: zimbris on January 31, 2010, 10:04:21 PM
asta a fost un caz izolat, sau s-a facut lucrul asta si cu alti caini?
Post by: Johnsk9 on February 01, 2010, 04:13:24 AM
This is what dive the old hard dogs http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/ped ... 22234.html (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6/22234.html) -6 generations
Post by: Johnsk9 on February 01, 2010, 05:13:43 AM
este interesant sa urmaresti si programele de crestere van Tiekerhook. el este cunoscut la nivel mondial pt tipul de caine pe care incearca sa-l mentina. Multe consangvinizari si acolo.
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2010, 07:33:55 AM
This is the puppy I'm talking about:
[youtube:22xc4kuw]Iyv2G4wsQxk[/youtube:22xc4kuw]
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2010, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: "Johnsk9"
I would say this was not uncommon.this and close line breeding is used to keep a type of dog one desires. If you look at many of the old pedigrees you will find extreme line breeding.Most of these were very goods/ Look at this ( http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/22234.html (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/22234.html) ) You see they use Held-Golf-Grand vom Ritterberg but most important all the Bernd vom Lierberg
This is what dive the old hard dogs http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/ped ... 22234.html (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6/22234.html) -6 generations
hmmmm... this is really starting to get my attention..
based on plain theory, it would be hard for me to believe that close breeding would produce good dogs, but I guess facts don't lie.
Post by: Johnsk9 on February 01, 2010, 08:14:00 AM
You must consider all of this to have balanced breeding program. What is wrong with the GSD today. We breed out civil aggression to sell more dogs. We breed over the top drive to chase ball and bit sleeve. We bred the dog to show beauty. Now we have the average dog we see today shit. The SV ruined the GSD in Germany now you have new group trying to bring back the old GSD. But in Germany the DDR blood is gone.........Here is the link
http://www.rsv2000.de/ (http://www.rsv2000.de/)
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2010, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: "Johnsk9"
Bodo and Bernd vom Lierberg were the best ever dogs breed even today.When they are close in the blood the give aggressive pups.Sure they had their problems But that is why they blend other blood into the dogs.You see you just can't breed just high aggressions you need to find other trait from different blood to make up the whole dog. Example a softer dogs with great nose blended in for tracking or strong nerve dog minor aggression to improve nerve strength.
You must consider all of this to have balanced breeding program. What is wrong with the GSD today. We breed out civil aggression to sell more dogs. We breed over the top drive to chase ball and bit sleeve. We bred the dog to show beauty. Now we have the average dog we see today shit. The SV ruined the GSD in Germany now you have new group trying to bring back the old GSD. But in Germany the DDR blood is gone.........Here is the link
http://www.rsv2000.de/ (http://www.rsv2000.de/)
Yes I know of RSV2000, I posted a link to it on our website. I am curious to know what they will achieve in the coming months / years. according to statements on a ped Database forum, the SV are banning those who become members of the new RSV2000. About 2 years ago, when I started to really become interested in the remaining population of DDR dogs, I emailed a breeder in Germany as I was looking to buy a puppy from him, but instead he offered me a Mali pup, telling me the DDR type of dogs are on their way to making just history, due to close inbreeding.
Post by: Johnsk9 on February 01, 2010, 01:08:14 PM
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... ation.html (http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com/east-german-bloodline-information.html)
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... harts.html (http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com/breed_line_charts.html)
In the end they had little lines left and most were then mixed with the west.Why the west Germans made big money selling show dogs.The people of the east wanted to make money this caused more lines to be lost.The bloodline 13A which 99% of the people have today is all that remains. Being a dog breeder why did not one recognize the need to isolate these lines and maintain to have alternate bloods to keep this unique type dogs alive. It does not say much for them they lost a very important part of dog history and more so it was their on piece of history
. I am the only person i know of who has the blood with out the new left over east german line 13a. I do not breed this.
in Germany they only want KKL1 and V rating many old working dogs can not be this Why this is not for working dogs
The americans who had more DDr blood then the Germans also mixed and lost the lines
Bodo vom Lierberg was sold into the usa he was not used by the breeders
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2010, 01:31:27 PM
Quote from: "Johnsk9"
I would like to know the name of the breeder that told you that.The problem is when the wall came down there was money to be made. They were poor people with a government that did not care for them so they started selling all the ddr dogs to have money. Read bloodline information. Read about the different line 5a -11 a-e -12 -13a link
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... ation.html (http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com/east-german-bloodline-information.html)
http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com ... harts.html (http://east-german-shepherds.weebly.com/breed_line_charts.html)
In the end they had little lines left and most were then mixed with the west.Why the west Germans made big money selling show dogs.The people of the east wanted to make money this caused more lines to be lost.The bloodline 13A which 99% of the people have today is all that remains. Being a dog breeder why did not one recognize the need to isolate these lines and maintain to have alternate bloods to keep this unique type dogs alive. It does not say much for them they lost a very important part of dog history and more so it was their on piece of history
. I am the only person i know of who has the blood with out the new left over east german line 13a. I do not breed this.
in Germany they only want KKL1 and V rating many old working dogs can not be this Why this is not for working dogs
The americans who had more DDr blood then the Germans also mixed and lost the lines
Bodo vom Lierberg was sold into the usa he was not used by the breeders
That is exactly what I asked myself after reading the history of the DDR dogs, after the wall came down - why didn't the Americans use what they had??!! That does not make any sense to me at all... they had pure gold in their hands....... No offence to you or any Americans in general, it's just a question I asked myself many times.
Post by: zimbris on February 01, 2010, 02:06:44 PM
Johnsk9 vorbeste despre consangvinizarea stransa practicata de crescatorii din fosta RDG, din care ieseau caini buni - bine-nteles si cu probleme pe ici pe colo.
just giving the short version of our conversation for the Romanians who don't speak English.
Post by: Man Stopper on February 26, 2010, 09:04:28 AM
Post by: zimbris on February 26, 2010, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Have read that it's important that the female is the key when breeding.. Have also read that the maternal grandsire of the pup plays a big part genetically, yet well known breeders seem to mention the Sire lines.. Example belonging to a particular bloodline as Jiri from Jinipo likes to state and other breeders mentioning Line 13 12a and so on... Looking through how dogs in the past were matched and trying to figure out if they followed a system or did they match dogs on how they performed and not what they are on paper...Are dogs of today better then the past, IF so, why ? And if not once again, WHY ?
Dogs of today better than the past - in my humble opinion - NO. I believe the hunger for finances has taken the minds of many breeders or in some cases, so-called breeders.
I guess there are different opinions as to which parent / grandparent etc plays a bigger part in determing the quality of the progenies... In my own view, one has to simply judge things by facts, not by statements. That takes time I guess, but in the end it's all worth it. I have not been breeding for a long time at all, only recently; but that is because I did not want to breed 'anything', I wanted to be sure (at least to some extent) that I know what I am doing. And so what I've learned so far - that there are plenty compromises along the way and you can't avoid mistakes. But going back to the topic title, I am coming to learn that, some of the best dogs of the past were closely line-bred. Although many put line-breeding in a bad light....
Post by: Man Stopper on June 13, 2010, 09:48:14 AM
Mi-ar faca placere sa stiu ce diferente ar fi intre a monta Mama cu Fiul respectiv, Tata si Fiica.. creste oare riscul problemelor genetice, de la unul la altul??
Post by: zimbris on June 13, 2010, 10:04:22 PM
Poate cineva cu experienta vasta poate sa impartaseasca ceva opinii, cum ar fi de ex John
Post by: Leo Pui on June 13, 2010, 10:38:13 PM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Would like to know what the difference would be if you breed the Dam and Son together, in comparison to Sire X Daughter.. Is their more of a chance for genetic problems from one another ??I have some good reading about these in my homepage, click HERE (http://http://www.nightwatchk9.com/12-Reading.htm)!
Am niste materiale interesante despre asta pe sit'ul meu, mergeti aici: HERE (http://http://www.nightwatchk9.com/12-Reading.htm)
Post by: zimbris on June 13, 2010, 10:49:10 PM
Post by: Johnsk9 on June 14, 2010, 07:01:16 AM
These are written statistics that does not meant it is written in stone.Through the history of the German Shepherd dogs
inbreeding and line breeding has always been a part of the breed
Sansele ca ambii parinti sa poarte aceeasi genea recesiva atunci cand sunt inruditi. Riscul unei boli serioase sau a malformatiilor intr-o progenitura este de 1 din 20. Totusi, intre veri primari casatoriti, riscul se gaseste intr-un raport de 1 din 11. Daca cuplul este format din rude de gradul 1, riscul este 1 din 2.
Toate acestea sunt statistici scrise iar aceasta nu inseamna ca sunt scrise in piatra. De-alungul istoriei rasei Ciobanesc German inbreeding-ul si linebreeding-ul au facut parte din peisajul rasei.
Post by: Man Stopper on June 14, 2010, 09:06:53 AM
Maybe some table or examples are needed i think, something simplified.. :evil:
Post by: Leo Pui on June 14, 2010, 09:16:58 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Thanks for that Leo, have read some of the info and its something i would have to read over and over again i guess to absorb much better.. :? Read again and read over again ... so, I decided to put it in real by doing so! :? fellow members.I dont have the 'excess" of getting close into the the grand-sire/grand-dam and therefore, "making-use" with what I have to start with! :) If not well its more homework i guess
[/quote]LOL! Dude, you just got it right!
Post by: Man Stopper on June 14, 2010, 09:43:50 AM
Post by: zimbris on June 14, 2010, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Well theory is important, but most importantly is to have others who share the same vision.. Which is re creating a balance of sharpness and civil drive, which some would like to see come back in the working GSD.. Any other members willing to do my homework :mrgreen:
Post by: Man Stopper on June 21, 2010, 09:25:35 AM
Caini renumiti care nu au fost folositi in consangvinizari, precum Titus z PS, sunt considerati legendari... Oare mai putem enumera alti caini cunoscuti DDR'isti sau Cehi, care au avut o contributie pe scena de lucru (serviciu)
Post by: Man Stopper on June 21, 2010, 10:23:54 AM
Post by: Bogdan on June 23, 2010, 01:56:23 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Great dogs who were not inbred/linebred such as Titus z. Pohrancini straze, are considered legendary.. Wondering if we can list other well known DDR/Czech/West working dogs that have made a contribution in the working service scene..
Caini renumiti care nu au fost folositi in consangvinizari, precum Titus z PS, sunt considerati legendari... Oare mai putem enumera alti caini cunoscuti DDR'isti sau Cehi, care au avut o contributie pe scena de lucru (serviciu)
Caini care nu sunt rezultatul unei cosangvinizari (n.a. stranse), cum ar fi Titus PS ........
Post by: zimbris on June 23, 2010, 09:07:37 AM
Post by: Man Stopper on June 23, 2010, 09:38:27 AM
Post by: Bogdan on June 23, 2010, 10:59:42 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
Did Bogdan say that there is no need to linebreed, to create dogs like Titus ?
No, i just make an ajustement to previous translation.
I'm the bigest Titus fan.
Also i don't like inbreeding, but this is only a point of view. I know that the time for inbreding in my kennel will come in some day.
Post by: Santos on February 14, 2011, 04:27:20 AM
I think we should talk more about breeding and genetics.
Post by: zimbris on February 14, 2011, 04:28:34 AM
Eu sunt de acord cu consangvinizarile, am vazut caini f buni rezultati din asa ceva. India si Nero sunt 2 exemple care imi vin acum in minte. India e consangvinizata pe Tituts z PS.. oricine cunoaste numele, ar trebui sa aiba asteptari de la o astfel de consangvinizare ;)
Post by: Santos on February 14, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
My oppinion is that the line breeding is not so important but the way we select the dogs that we breed and after what criterions we make the selection.
Post by: RogerW on February 14, 2011, 06:52:49 PM
(GSDs are not what I am talking here, I am new(er) to GSDs.) But I have been breeding working hog dogs a long time, and more recently the Bandogs. To lock in working traits that I count on we must line breed; to regain health and broaden alleles for hybrid vigour (not exactly hybrid vigour but that is what everyone calls it) outcrosses must be very, very carefully chosen and then right back into the line to start tightening again.
Breeding only for traits out of two dogs unrelated will get a great F1 dog, but breeding further just on traits is tricky to say the least, and is rife with bringing in more and more health related problems, unfortunately. If a breeder only wanted to produce F1 litters, line breeding would not be important. No breeding program for a purpose or abilities such as our catch dogs need, could exist with out line and inbreeding, but I also believe in outcrossing at the very right time.
prefer nepot cu matusa, sau unchi cu nepoata. Cand devine prea stransa (consangvinizarea) si numai atunci si inainte de ceva degenerari familiale, caut un out-cross intr-o linie asa consangvinizata strans. Dar montam doar cel mai bun cu cea mai buna, cu sau fara consangvinizare. Asta a functionat (literalmente) pt noi cel mai bine.
Nu despre CG vorbesc aici, sunt ceva mai nou in domeniul CG. Dar am crescut caini de vanatoare (de mistreti) multa vreme, iar mai recent Bandog. Pt a pastra anumite calitati de lucru pe care eu le caut, este necesara consangvinizarea; pt a recastiga sanatatea si a largi vigurozitatea hibrida (nu chiar vigurozitate hibrida dar asa o numeste lumea) outcross-uri trebuie foarte, foarte atent alese iar apoi revenire la linia initiala pt strangerea consangvinizarii.
Monta facuta intre doi caini neinruditi, avand ca scop doat calitatile de lucru, va produce un caine de F1 (formula 1 ?) dar cresterea mai departe doar pt calitati este cel putin cu obstacole si e plina cu aducerea treptata de probleme de sanatate, din pacate. Daca un crescator ar vrea sa produca doar caini de F1, consangvinizarea nu ar mai fi importanta. Nici un program de crestere cu un scop sau abilitati asa cum cainii nostri de vanatoare au nevoie, nu ar putea exista fara consangvinizare, dar eu cred in out-cross facut la vremea potrivita.
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 01:17:36 AM
But we only breed best to best, line breeding or not.
dar incrucisam cel mai bun cu cel mai bun, cu sau fara consangvinizare.
To lock in working traits that I count on we must line breed
Pt a pastra anumite calitati de lucru pe care eu contez, este nevoie de consangvinizare.
Thank you for your input Roger, I actually did expect that you would share a word or two, knowing you have bred dogs for some years now, be it other breeds.
I didn't use to pay much attention to line breeding until I spoke with John and he opened my eyes to new "dimensions" as far as breeding goes.
It's really good to have you, Santos, maybe even John, pouring info here based on individual past experiences. I am not a great mind in the field of this topic but I judge things by results as a basic principle. And I see great dogs resulted from tight line breeding.. as well as good dogs resulted from out-crosses. And so, i gather it is down to the individual (breeder) to decide which way to go. Like yourself, Dux and i are planning to make use of both out-cross and line breeding. We will probably need a few good years to be able to draw some conclusions. With that in mind, as I said before your input is valuable here.
Multumesc pt aport Roger, chiar m-am asteptat sa postezi si tu, stiind ca ai crescut caini multi ani, chiar daca e vb de alte rase.
Nu obisnuiam sa dau mare atentie consangvinizarilor dar dupa cateva conversatii cu John am inceput sa vad lucrurile altfel.
E bine sa te avem aici, pe Santos, poate si John, sa veniti cu informatii bazate pe experientele voastre din trecut. Nu sunt o minte lumiata in domeniul asta dar din principiu judec lucrurile dupa rezultate, iar caini buni am vazut si din consangvinizari si din out-crossuri. Si uite asa, trag concluzia ca depinde de fiecare crescator in parte ce si cum sa faca. ca si tine, eu si Dux intentionam sa folosim consangvinizarea si out-crossul in viitor. Vom avea nevoie de cativa ani pt a trage niste concluzii clare. Cu asta in minte, cum spuneam, aportul vostru aici e important.
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 01:44:27 AM
Post by: guest on February 15, 2011, 02:06:53 AM
and more recently the Bandogs.Bandogs!!!Yeah! :rockon:
Sorry for the off topic! :rolleyes:
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 02:32:02 AM
...sorry for the off-topic :lol:
Post by: Santos on February 15, 2011, 09:05:20 AM
Va pot da un exemplu mai recent: Am 4 femele de CG care sunt surori de cuib, am facut monta cu Greif cu toate 4 . Puii rezultati au fost ca si calitate in functie de calitatea mamei. Una dintre femele avea o mica problema de temperament transmitand-o si la unii din pui. Alt exemplu este Caja si fratele ei Car. Ea a dat puii foarte buni cu toate ca nu este o femela foarte buna in paza dar nu are deloc probleme de comportament. Masculul este agresiv cu instabilitate. Instabilitatea a transmis-o si puilor determinandu-ma sa il scot de la reproductie .In consangvinizare trebuie urmariti parintii, bunicii, fratii, surorile si mai ales produsii care sunt scosi.
Line breeding is good only to some extent. Through repetitive line breeding one comes across several health issues and especially reproductive issues. I am for line breeding only if I don't have breeding dogs that are not that good or if I want to pin down specific working qualities. By my experience (i have been breeding dogs for the last 25 years and have about 80 litters in a single year) I can say that what counts the most is the quality of the breeding dogs (male and female).
I can mention a more recent example: I got 4 females, litter mates, I bred them all to Greif. The resulted pups qualities were in line with the qualities of their individual mothers. one of the females has a mild temperament issue and she passed that on to some of the pups. Another example is Caja and her brother Car. She produced very good dogs although she is not impressive herself as far as protection however, she has a balanced temperament. The male though is aggressive with some lack of stability. He passed that on to some progenies so I excluded him from further breeding. Parents must be monitored when line breeding, grandparents, litter mates and especially resulted progenies.
Post by: RogerW on February 15, 2011, 12:49:51 PM
sau vreau sa fixez mai bine caracterele unui reproducator
*I always want to do this, that's why I breed.
Intotdeauna asta e scopul meu, de-aia cresc caini.
"I am for line breeding only if I don't have breeding dogs that are not that good"
Sunt de acord cu aceasta numai daca nu am reproducatori de calitate cu care sa montez
*In my mind, this sentence cancels out the first for me.
In opinia mea, afirmatia asta o anuleaza pe cea de mai sus
I agree that parents and progeny and all must be monitored. How in the world can you monitor 80 litters per year if you are one man, or two as we are here? I don't breed so much, but try to get dogs in the hands of people who will observe and report to me everything about them. No way could I breed more than 3 or 4 litters a year, and I haven't done that in a long time.
My goal is consistency, and I can't get consistency by breeding two great dogs that have no blood in common; the pick of the litter is fantastic maybe. There may be two others that might be decent. Someone will wind up owning the rest or I will have to keep them until they're old enough to really evaluate and then cull them if they're no good. I don't have an army of helpers. I need consistent traits and consistent health, and you will not get consistent traits unless you line breed, IMO. That is why there are "lines" of dogs and well, breeds of dogs. However, I fully agree that it brings up health problems that are in that specific line, and that's why I do it, so I can see what is in the line. If it's no good or brings in HD, skin problems, bad nerves, etc, I'll start over. But if it's good and I breed tight, then it's not just good but GREAT and I know what I am working with and do an outcross with a similarly tight line whose health problems have been identified and eradicated. Breeding one good dog to another ...you can never know what is in the line, just a litter and only those you keep or monitor closely; only someone down the line who has paid good money gets to know for sure, and it usually ain't so hot if the breeder keeps the best of the litter of a scatterbred dog.
Sunt de acord ca parintii si produsii trebuiesc monitorizati. dar cum poti monitoriza 80 de cuiburi daca esti un singur om, sau doi, cum suntem noi aici? Eu nucresc atat de mult, dar incerc sa dau cateii produsi in mainile unor oameni care ma vor actualiza cu privire la cateii dati. In nici un caz nu as putea produce mai mult de 3 - 4 cuiburi pe an, iar asta n-am mai facut demult.
Scopul meu e consistenta, iar nu pot obtine consistenta combinand 2 caini care nu au nici un grad de rudenie; ok, poate un catel din cuib va fi f bun.. poate vor mai fi inca 2 care sunt cel putin buni. Cineva va sfarsi prin a detine ce ramane sau va trebui sa-i pastrez eu pana cresc destul de mari sa-i evaluez iar ulterior sa-i selectez daca nu sunt buni. Nu am la dispozitie o armata de ajutor. Am nevoie de consistenta in privinta calitatilor si a sanatatii iar acestea nu le vei obtine daca nu faci consangvinizare, in opinia mea. De aceea exista "linii" de caini si rase de caini. Dar, sunt total de acord ca apar si problemele de sanatate care exista in linia respectiva si tot de-aia o fac (consangvinizare) ca sa pot vedea clar ce se afla in acea linie. daca nu e buna si produce HD, probleme de piele, nervi slavi, etc, o iau de la capat. dar daca rezultatul e bun si fac consangvinizare stransa, atunci de la bine trec la FOARTE BINE si stiu cu ce anume lucrez si recurg la un outcross cu o linie stransa in care problemele de sanatate au fost identificate si eradicate. sa montezi un caine bun cu un altul bun... niciodata nu poti stii sigur ce este intr-o linie, doar ce pastrezi din cuib si monitorizezi indeaproape; numai cineva care s-a sacrificat pe durata lunga, inclusiv financiar, poate afla niste raspunsuri concrete, si de obicei nu e mare lucru, daca crescatorul pastreaza ce e mai bun din cuib.
Post by: RogerW on February 15, 2011, 12:52:04 PM
So, I can see it being easier to breed without line breeding because there is SO much information available about lines of German Shepherds. Not so with the dogs I work with... they (the ones I like) were farm utility dogs or just extreme catch dogs.
Post by: zimbris on February 15, 2011, 01:34:04 PM
In the German Shepherd world, it is much easier to research dogs and breed like Santos speaks of because working dogs are more evaluated by third parties than bulldogs are on a farm some place in the woods.
Post by: RogerW on February 15, 2011, 01:38:10 PM
Ma refer la faptul ca exista o baza de date a CGului, exista multi oameni care au vazut la lucru cainii cei mai buni. Exista un sport facut special pt CG. Ciobanestii germani au fost evaluati de parti tertiare in sporturi diferite de la bun inceput, cei de lucru cel putin. deci e relativ usor sa gasesti pe cineva care sa-ti spuna despre cainii din sangele lui Greif, de exemplu. nu asa este si cu cainii de lucru / ferma. Fie si-au facut treaba, fie nu si ca au murit si.. cam atata informatie stii. :grin: Cu aparitia Bulldogului American in competitii, de vreo 20 de ani sunt ceva mai multe informatii, dar nu se compara cu volumul de info despre CG.
Post by: Santos on February 16, 2011, 08:27:25 AM
The GSD has a huge pool of individuals and breeding can be done without making use of line breeding. The greatest problem with line breeding is lowered vitality which is obviously very important for a working dog. In my view, selecting the individual dog is the best method in breeding, not just when it comes to dogs but domestic animals in general, that's how breeds came to be
Post by: Man Stopper on February 21, 2011, 08:52:14 AM
Anticipez multe consangvinizari pe Greif in viitorul apropiat...!
Post by: RogerW on February 21, 2011, 11:16:07 AM
I could see plenty of line/in breeding on Grief in the near future...!
Anticipez multe consangvinizari pe Greif in viitorul apropiat...!
Post by: dux on February 21, 2011, 02:02:26 PM
Aceasta o consider o combinatie de exceptie.
Abia de acum in colo in Romania putem lucra pe consangvinizari.Pana acum chiar daca vroiam nu puteam face.Abia de acum am reusit sa facem ,,constructia''genetica pentru a consangviniza pe caini buni.
Mai pot face combinatii frumoase cu India si Remus(3-3 pe Mambo),India si fratele lui Soni(3-3 Mambo).Fratele lui Soni (din cate mi-a spus Tesa)este exact cum doresc eu .Adica masiv si daca te prinde in curte te baga in spital.Eu zic ca de acum in colo ,datorita consangvinizarilor,cateii scosi in canisele noastre vor fi mai buni decat cateii scosi anterior.
Post by: kangdanlin on February 21, 2011, 02:07:13 PM
Post by: zimbris on February 21, 2011, 02:08:41 PM
Fratele lui Soni (din cate mi-a spus Tesa)este exact cum doresc eu .Adica masiv si daca te prinde in curte te baga in spital.:laugh: :rockon:
Post by: Santos on February 22, 2011, 09:04:53 AM
I'll make very close line breedings : father with daughter and mother with son. These line breedings I'll make only once and after that I'll breed specimens that are not line bred.
Post by: zimbris on February 22, 2011, 09:06:09 AM
Personally I wouldn't make too close line breedings...but anyway, it's only my oppinion. I'm actually curios to find out what results you will obtain.
Post by: Santos on February 22, 2011, 09:40:21 AM
If you wanna fix a certain character really well, you need to use individuals that share the same character and that are very close. They can be very colse but one of them may not have the same character. For example if I breed father - daughter, the daughter may very well not share the same character that I want to select.
Post by: zimbris on February 22, 2011, 09:45:19 AM
Well, online statistics show that the more open the line breeding, the better. Shall I understand that you did some very close line breedings and had good results.
Post by: zimbris on February 22, 2011, 09:47:43 AM
Pot fi foarte apropiati dar unul din genitori sa nu il aiba De exemplu daca montez tata cu fica ,fica poate sa nu aiba caracterul pe care eu doresc sa-l selecteznu cred ca inteleg f bine ce spui aici.. :think:
I don't think I understand exactly what you want to say here.. :think:
Post by: kangdanlin on February 22, 2011, 09:50:52 AM
nu cred ca inteleg f bine ce spui aici.. :think:eu cred ca inteleg ce vrea sa spuna..ca la curent "+" cu "-" se anuleaza.....dar "-" cu "-" sau "+" cu "+" se adauga
sper ca metafora sa fie corecta :think:
I think I understand what he wants to say...like in the electricity "+" with "-" cancels eachother...but "-" with "-" or "+" with "+" add eachother
I hope this metaphor is corect. :think:
Post by: Santos on February 22, 2011, 10:33:32 AM
for example, let's say I want to select the curly tail. The male has this characteristic but the daughter isn't necesarily the same. So I select the daughters that have this character too.
Post by: Santos on February 22, 2011, 10:36:20 AM
I also breed pigeons and I often do close line breeding, and many times I get what I want.
Post by: Santos on February 22, 2011, 10:45:32 AM
Post by: Leo Pui on February 22, 2011, 10:48:24 AM
rog sa traduca cineva ca sa inteleaga LEO SI ROGERWasta e foarte amabil de tine, ca traduc?tor on-line pot s? nu func?ioneze chiar la timp! :)
Post by: Leo Pui on February 22, 2011, 11:22:11 AM
Just sharing ....
Aici sunt cateva articole pe site la mine de cativa ani....am verificat cu cativa crescatori si se pare ca 90% din ce scrie acolo sunt adevarate. :)
Post by: Leo Pui on February 22, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
I have a friend in Philippines that once did the mother and son breeding, the end result is kind of "bad" ... only one male pup is consider good among the entire litter of seven.
When come to close line-breeding or In-breeding ... to me, it actually double the good and double the bad too ...
Now, I would like to share the study article, which I learn through out in 1998 when I am still breeding White Shepherd Dog ...
The coat colour comes from a simple recessive gene. To put it plainly, in order to produce a white puppy, both parents must carry the gene for the white coat colour. The white gene is not associated with the genes that cause colour paling in the German Shepherd Dog, since those genes are located at different loci. It is probably possible that a solid white GSD could carry these dilution genes. However, since the dog is white in colour, the paling factor would not express itself in the colour of the coat.
All dogs have a total of 78 chromosomes, which are inherited from both parents at the moment of conception. Thus, each parent gives half the genetic makeup to their offspring – 39 from the sire and 39 from the dam. In simple terms, the chromosomes (which carry the genes) like to hang out in pairs. They align themselves so that the genes they carry will always exist in pairs. Each gene pair controls a given trait, either alone or in combination with other gene pairs. If the genes that make up the pair are exactly alike, the dog is said to be ‘homozygous’ for that gene pair. If the pair is mixed, then that dog is ‘heterozygous’ for that pair. These gene pairs acting in combination with each other determine what traits the dog will exhibit – called its ‘genotype.’ All white German Shepherd Dogs are homozygous for the gene pair responsible for producing the colour white. If we call the white gene ‘w’, then all White Shepherds must have the following genotype: ww. (A non white dog would have to be either WW or Ww.)
If we breed our white dog, the only gene it would be able to contribute to its offspring would be the recessive w. You may have heard the term "phenotype" which describes the physical appearance of an animal. Thus, the phenotype of a GSD that inherits the ww gene pair will be that of a solid white dog. The problem with the phenotype is that what you see isn’t always what you get. In many cases, you can’t tell a given dog’s genotype just by looking at its phenotype. For example, a black and tan dog could be homozygous for non white (WW). Such a dog would be unable to produce a white puppy, even if bred to a white dog because it doesn’t carry the recessive white gene. However, a black and tan dog could be carrying the gene for solid white (heterozygous for the white gene pair) and you would never know it just by looking at him (his phenotype) because the dominant W ‘covers up’ or takes precedence over the recessive partner gene. A coloured GSD that does not carry the recessive w (homozygous for W) bred to another homozygous W partner will produce a litter of non white, non carrier puppies. Likewise, two white GSDs (homozygous for w) bred together can never produce a coloured puppy.
We can use a simple punnet square to determine the probability of producing white offspring from a white parent x non white parent if we know the genotype of the non white dog.
In the first Punnet Square, we see the potential result of breeding two carriers together. (We’ll define a carrier as a non white dog that carries the white gene, also known as white ‘factored.’) With this mating, there is a potential for 25% of the resultant litter to be white (ww), 25% to be homozygous non white (WW) and 50% to be heterozygous non white (Ww – carries the white factor). In example 2, we mate a carrier (white factored or Ww) to a white partner (homozygous ww). The potential exists for half the litter (approximately 50%) to be white while the other 50% will be white factored (heterozygous) like their non white parent. In the third example, we breed a homozygous non white dog to a white partner. None of these puppies can be white but all of them have inherited the white factor and can produce white when bred to another carrier or to a white partner. In the fourth example, we breed a white factored dog to a homozygous non carrier. Again, none of these pups can be white but half of them (approximately 50%) could potentially carry the white gene. The other 50% would be homozygous non carriers. The only way to tell whether a given puppy has inherited the white factor would be to do a test breeding to a white dog. If no white pups result, then you would know that the parent is probably a non carrier, or homozygous for WW.
This is a very simplistic explanation and does not account for the actions of other genes at other loci. But it should help explain how and why the white colour can be carried along for several generations without expressing itself and then suddenly appear in a litter of GSD puppies.
Post by: kangdanlin on February 22, 2011, 12:43:33 PM
am un prieten in Philipines care a facut odata o monta mama-fiu, iar rezultatul a fost "cam rau"...doar un singur mascul a fost considerat viabil dintr-un cuib de 7
cand vorbim de selectie pe linie..pentru mine, se dubleaza partile pozitive, dar se dubleaza si partile negative
Acum as vrea sa impartasesc un articol stiintific, pe care l-am studiat prin 1998 cand inca selectionam ciobanesti albi
culoarea blanii vine de la o simpla gena recesiva.Ca sa ma exprin mai simplu, pentru a produce un pui alb, ambii parinti trebuie sa poarte aceeasi gena pentru culoarea alba.Gena culorii albe nu este asociata cu gena care determina pierderea culorii la Ciobanescul German, atat timp cat cele 2 gene sunt localizate in locuri diferite.Este probabil posibil ca un ciobanesc alb sa poarte aceste gene care dilueaza culoarea.dar, atat timp cat cainele este alb complet, factorul de diluare nu se va exprima asupra culorii blanii.
toti cainii au un total de 78 de cromozomi, ce sunt mosteniti de la ambii parinti la momentul conceptiei.deci fiecare parinte contribuie cu jumatate din bagajul genetic al puiului,39 de la mascul si 39 de la femela.
In termeni simpli , cromozomii (ce transmit genele) se gasesc in perechi.Se aliniaza asa incat genele pe care le transmit se vor gasi intotdeauna in perechi.
Fiecare pereche de gene controleaza o anumita trasatura, ori singura ori in combinatie cu alte gene pereche.Daca genele care alcatuiesc o anumita pereche sunt identice, se spune ca acel caine este "homozigot" pentru acea pereche de gene.daca perechea este "amestecata", acel caine este"heterozigot" pentru acea pereche.
Aceste perechi de gene, actionand in combinatie una cu alta determina ce caracteristici va prezenta cainele-si anume alcatuiesc genotipul.toti ciobanestii albi sunt homozigoti pentru perechea de gene responsabila pentru culoare alba.
Daca am numi gena alba w, atunci toti ciobanestii albi vor trebui sa aibaurmatorul genotip ww.(un caine care nu este alb ar trebui sa aiba ori WW ori Ww)
Daca selectam cainele nostru alb, singura gena capabila sa contribuie asupra puilor este w.
Ati auzit termenul de fenotip,ce descrie aspectul fizic al unui animal.Deci fenotipul unui ciobanesc ce mosteneste gena ww va fi cel al unui caine alb complet.
Problema cu fenotipul este ca nu intotdeanuna ceea ce vezi nu este tot una cu ceea ce obtii.In multe cazuri, nu poti spune cu exactitate genotipul doar privind fenotipul.
Spre examplu un caine black&tan ar putea sa fie homozigot pentru alta culoare decat alb(WW).un asemenea caine ar putea fi capabil sa produca un pui alb complet,, chiar reprodus cu un caine alb , asta pentru ca nu poarta gena recesiva alba.
Totusi, un caine black&tan ar putea sa transmita gena pentru culoare alba(heterozigot pentru culoarea perechea de gene albe) si nu ai putea sti lucrul acesta, doar vazand aspectul lui(functie de fenotipul lui) pentru ca gena dominanta W acopera sau domina gena recesiva a partenerului sau.
un ciobanesc colora ce nu poarta gena recesiva w(homozigot pentru W) reprodus cu un alt homozigot W ha produce un cuib de pui non-albi, pui netransmitatori.asemanator, doi ciobanesti albi(homozigoti pentru w), inmultiti impreuna nu vor putea produce niciodata un pui colorat.
putem folosi un simplu "cos" patrat pentru a determina probabilitatea producerii unor pui albi dintr-un parinte alb si unul non-alb daca cunoastem genotipul parintelui non-alb.
in primul patrat, vedem rezultatul potential pentru selectia a 2 parinti ce poarta impreuna aceeasi gena.(vom defini purtatorul ca fiind un caine non-alb purtator al genei, cunoscut si sub numele de "factorul alb").cu aceasta monta , avem un potential de 25%de a obtine un cuib alb (ww), 25 & sanse sa avem homozigoti non-albi(WW) si 50 % sanse de a avea heterozigoti non-albi(Ww poarta factorul alb)exista posibilitatea ca jumatate din cuib sa fie albi in timp ce cealalta jumatate sa fie cu factorul alb(heterozigoti)asemeni parintelui lor non-alb.
Al treilea exemplu, selectam un homozigot non-alb cu un partener alb.nici unul dintre acesti pui nu va fi alb, dar toti au mostenit factorul alb si pot transmite culoarea alb daca sunt reprodusi cu un alt purtator sau cu un partener alb.
In al patrulea exemplu, reproducem un caine cu factorul alb cu un partener nepurtator al homozigotului.iarasi, nici unul dintre puii rezultati nu va fi alb, dar aproximativ jumatate dintre ei vor putea fi purtatori ai genei albe.
cealalta jumatate ar fi homozigoti nepurtatori.
singura metoda prin care putem spune daca un pui a mostenit factorul alb ar fi sa facem o monta test cu un partener alb.
daca nu rezulta nici un pui alb, atunci vei putea sti ca acep parinte este probabil nepurtator, sau homozigot pentru WW.
Este o explicatie simplista si nu tine seama de actiunea altor gene plasate in alte locuri.Dar ar trebui sa explice cum si de ce culoarea alba poate fi transmisa cateva generatii la rand fara sa se manifeste pentru ca mai apoi sa apara subit intr-un cuib de ciobanesti
Post by: guest on February 22, 2011, 12:48:37 PM
Post by: kangdanlin on February 22, 2011, 01:04:21 PM
Post by: bobo70 on February 22, 2011, 01:16:05 PM
no problem..daca am facut vreo greseala, imi cer scuze...sunt cam obosit la ora asta :undecided:
Super kangdanlin. Multumim pentru traducere. :ok:
Post by: Man Stopper on February 28, 2011, 09:20:12 PM
personal nu m-as baga la consangvinizari f stranse... dar in fine, e doar alegerea mea.. chiar sunt curios sa vad ce rezultate vei obtine
Personally I wouldn't make too close line breedings...but anyway, it's only my oppinion. I'm actually curios to find out what results you will obtain.
Most times i guess the bad outweighs the good.
SG Whisky vom Ritterberg is close to V Pushkab vom Haus Himpel, which would of given him the genetics for his titles especially SP-PS..
But as for his physical structure looks nothing like Pushkab or Held Ritterberg..! More like Bernd vom Lierberg who is there 4 times in the first
5 generations..!
Post by: Man Stopper on August 11, 2011, 01:39:31 AM
Have noticed that many well know Stud dogs 'female' progeny make up the majority of a 6 generation pedigree..
For example if it was 5,5 -4,5,5 on Ex v Riedstern. most wouold be through his female offspring..
Post by: zimbris on August 11, 2011, 03:53:47 AM
Is there a differance if a Stud dogs genetics are passes onto Male progeny or female offspring..woof... you're throwing in some heavy weight questions, I would rather have someone like John answer that, I think...
Have noticed that many well know Stud dogs 'female' progeny make up the majority of a 6 generation pedigree..
For example if it was 5,5 -4,5,5 on Ex v Riedstern. most wouold be through his female offspring..
Post by: Man Stopper on August 12, 2011, 09:05:22 AM
Who then is mated to a bitch who's Paternal Sire or Grandsire is the same favoured dog "X".
So we then have "X" being 4,3 - 3 for example..
Ex vom Riedstern is an example with him being 4,3 - 3 on Ali Granert..
Just a theory i would personally follow..
Doesn't mean no guarantee, but close enough IMO...
Post by: Man Stopper on August 25, 2011, 07:37:41 AM
Just wondering how Santos views this when mating Grief so many times.. Does it click better with differant or same line bitches..
Post by: ShepherdsByDesignK9 on December 28, 2011, 05:48:44 PM
For instance: I will bring up Klara z Pohranicni Straze for an example, Although she was an excellent working dog, she was also displastic. Now having this dog in your Czech dog can be very bad as I have seen pups even 7 generations away from her still have chances of having bad hips. When we line breed we have that chance of bring back bad issues in our pups and with Klara in a pedigree I generally walk away from the dog just for that reason. For many years they had said that you can't successfully line breed in Grim z Pohranicni Straze. Part of this is truth and the other is just not. What I mean by the truth is that you can successfully do this ONLY if there isn't any crap dogs in the 2 pedigrees. But to bring Grim back a 2nd time is rather risky.
Now to add inbreeding to our breeding I'm just not as knowledgeable on this procedure and until I fully understand the total picture I'm happy to continue on breeding in the way I am for now,
Post by: zimbris on December 28, 2011, 11:36:06 PM
Bringing back a dog - I guess like you put it, you want to do that IF the dog was good allover and IF when bred to different bitches, he produced well with minimum health issues. From what I understand, Don Rolandsteich and Zorro Laager Wall were such dogs, with Zorro not passing a nice mask but I could care less about that, as long as the right temperament is in place and a slow percentage of bad hips or elbows.
Post by: ShepherdsByDesignK9 on December 29, 2011, 12:13:46 AM
John has had his issues with Titus dogs in the past which I'm sure he would be happy to share with you as he did with me a few years ago
Tiekerhook ( Forgive my spelling) has been known for what he breeds, but most don't know about the litters that have been culled due to the breeding not producing what he wanted or was looking for in his pups. There was a lot of inbreeding in his lines to get what he has today. Now I have seen some that have bought dogs from him and had nothing but issues with their breeding only due to not selecting the correct male or female to breed back to his dogs. And for this reason I have steered away from inbreeding only due to not having the knowledge needed to do this type of breedings.
Post by: zimbris on December 29, 2011, 12:17:51 AM
To be honest, I believe all this HD/ED was taken to an extreme, with a hidden agenda, by major clubs such as the SV. There, I said it :lol:
Post by: ShepherdsByDesignK9 on December 29, 2011, 09:27:15 PM
I believe all this HD/ED was taken to an extreme, with a hidden agenda, by major clubs such as the SV. There, I said it :lol:
Yep now you opened up a can of worms...lol As I posted in I believe Narys Policia's pictures is a cross in which I plan on bring to my Faro lines for one breeding and then going back to my lines again lines
Post by: Santos on December 30, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Post by: Man Stopper on December 30, 2011, 04:11:12 PM
Post by: zimbris on December 30, 2011, 11:48:22 PM
Post by: Santos on December 31, 2011, 07:39:07 AM
Post by: Man Stopper on December 31, 2011, 03:54:43 PM