Post by: shamankin6 on June 09, 2010, 10:30:07 PM
Doresc sa stiu parerea voastra in legatura cu inregistrarea de mai jos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ggzzpUSEAc
Ron
Post by: crazywind on June 09, 2010, 11:21:13 PM
About the handler... I wouldn't like to touch my dog. Anyway it's an wonderful dog .
Post by: Dia_Boca on June 10, 2010, 12:47:46 AM
Post by: zimbris on June 10, 2010, 05:18:21 AM
Post by: shamankin6 on June 10, 2010, 04:08:47 PM
one more thing, this guy trained with some other people in the club who has good sporting titled dog. are they somebody in the club can't give him some good and honest advice towards a proper way in correcting your dog!?
Ron
Post by: shamankin6 on June 10, 2010, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: "zimbris"
..can't watch it.. it's set to 'private'
Dan,
i can still watch the video. maybe you have some connection problem there?
Ron
Post by: shamankin6 on June 10, 2010, 04:10:00 PM
Quote from: "Dia_Boca"
... i've managed to watch just the first 49 sec. ... it made me too angry... instead of communicating with the dog, he's making him crazy...
EXACTLY!
Ron
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 02:26:59 AM
eu tot nu pot vedea clipul dar am incredere in ceea ce spuneti voi si sunt convins ca nu mi-ar face placere sa vad continutul.
ps - mai, vad ca prin intermediul forumului putem sa ne exersam cunostintele de engleza
asta e bine, asa putem dialoga cu cat mai multi utilizatori din diferite tari si sa aflam care e "mersul" lucrurilor legate de CG in alte parti. ma bucur de asta!!
Post by: Leo Pui on June 11, 2010, 10:49:38 AM
I saw this video clip a few months ago and still keep a copy on that <wink>. The dog that u saw in the video clip is definitely a hard dog that ACCEPT hard correction that wont fail it drives. The owner of this dog is a Police Dog Handler that has many years experience in handling this type of dogs!
This dog in this video was just merely a few sections of training (as per the owner)! Months later, he did well not only on his job but also in the competition!
When come to the confront of bad guy that do not scare of police dog, one really need this type of dog to iron the issue and get the bad guy apprehend!
It is true that this video clip may affect someone else but to this group of peoples, they went through the hard-shit and they know what they are going into apart from well ahead in reading dog for pushing to the maximum!
I am expressing my comment, and I have no problem on this when one know the capabilities! Both of them are hard anyway <wink>!
Peace.
Salutare,
Am vazut clipul respectiv cu ceva timp in urma si am pastrat o copie ;)
peace
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 11:40:00 AM
Nowadays views on training have changed, or views on animals in general, so some training videos may indeed be taken quite hard by some viewers.. anyway, I hope I will find a way to watch the video!
Off... sper sa pot vedea clipul respectiv, m-ai facut curios.
In zilele noastre perspectivele asupra dresajului canin s-au schimbat, cat si perspectivele asupra animalelor de companie in general, deci intr-adevar unnele secvente video pot 'pica' gresit pt uni privitori... in fine, sper sa vad si eu clipul!
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 11:51:08 AM
When I have my first GSD, Ben, during bitework he was kicked in the chest and shoulders.. actually quite hard, back then I did not know how things were done.. I just knew combat meant combat.. so I trained my dog in that spirit. The result - in his life of a guard dog, two individuals ended up in hospital, plus protected both my sisters a few times.
But like I said, I need to see the video before I say more..
Post by: Leo Pui on June 11, 2010, 12:00:53 PM
Quote from: "zimbris"
I need to see the video before I comment any further, but I agree that on the "real" field you need a dog that can do the job; sport is not 'real' action.. is sport! in sport there are rules, no rules out on the street!!Let me see if I can upload somewhere or to email u ...its a large file # 49.3mb!
When I have my first GSD, Ben, during bitework he was kicked in the chest and shoulders.. actually quite hard, back then I did not know how things were done.. I just knew combat meant combat.. so I trained my dog in that spirit. The result - in his life of a guard dog, two individuals ended up in hospital, plus protected both my sisters a few times.
But like I said, I need to see the video before I say more..
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 12:03:35 PM
Post by: Leo Pui on June 11, 2010, 12:08:36 PM
Quote from: "zimbris"
well.. wouldn't that man be upset by this...? He obviously set the video to "private" for a reason...Yeah ... guess I will just respect the owner's decision then although I strongly believe that he just doesnt want those who follow blindly
, thank you for your reminder! Cheers!
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 12:15:42 PM
...daca ma gandesc mai bine.. nu cred ca e cea mai buna idee sa faci publice anumite secvente video. Uni pot interpreta gresit ceea ce vad, destul de usor... sunt convins ca sunt caini care parcurg tehnici de dresaj f dure datorita naturii job-ului dar cred ca e mai bine ca astfel de lucruri / filmari sa ramana in anumite cercuri.
Post by: Dia_Boca on June 11, 2010, 12:15:48 PM
Quote from: "zimbris"
I need to see the video before I comment any further, but I agree that on the "real" field you need a dog that can do the job; sport is not 'real' action.. is sport! in sport there are rules, no rules out on the street!!
When I have my first GSD, Ben, during bitework he was kicked in the chest and shoulders.. actually quite hard, back then I did not know how things were done.. I just knew combat meant combat.. so I trained my dog in that spirit. The result - in his life of a guard dog, two individuals ended up in hospital, plus protected both my sisters a few times.
But like I said, I need to see the video before I say more..
I understand what it means to train for "real action", as you said Ben was "kicked in the chest and shoulders", but not by you (i guess)... in this video I don't understand why the handler hits the dog to correct or attract his attention, every 2 steps... i've only seen the begining of the clip...
I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: "Dia_Boca"
I understand what it means to train for "real action", as you said Ben was "kicked in the chest and shoulders", but not by you (i guess)... in this video I don't understand why the handler hits the dog to correct or atrct his attention, every 2 steps... i've only seen the begining of the clip.....like I said, I need to see the video before I comment any more..
I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 02:10:07 PM
So.. that's my opinion on it... But hey, it's good to talk about these things, we can learn some new stuff out of all this.
Ok.. am urmarit clipul. Indiferent de cati ani de experienta o avea dresorul respectiv, sincer consider unele elemente in ceea ce am vazut, ca nefiind necesare si, daca sunt sincer pana la capat, as spune ca sunt chiar enervante. Sa pregatesti un caine pt situatii mai dure si mai violente nu cred ca inseamna sa-l transformi intr-un dovleac si sa-l plesnesti asa ca sa-l "corectezi". Nu am urmarit clipul pana la capat, nu mi-a luat mult sa inteleg ce se intampla acolo. Mai cred ca folosind o asa metoda de 'dresaj', faci loc conflictului in mintea cainelui. Toate ca toate dar pana la urma un caine de serviciu e.. un caine de serviciu, nu o unealta fara viata. Deci.. sa vin cu propria mea concluzie.. eu cred in corectii mai dure (zmucituri din lesa de corectie si lucruri de genul) dar de ce plesnitul si lovitul.... faptul ca e un caine capabil sa accepte astfel de dresaj, nu este o scuza pt a se folosi metodele respective. Tinand cont de metodele existente (ok, nu f multe..) de ce sa recurgi tocmai la asa ceva....?
Deci.. asta e ceea ce cred eu.. dar hei, e bine sa discutam despre astfel de lucruri, mai putem invata cate ceva.
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: "Dia_Boca"
I'm not a softy... I also use some force to control my dog... he's bigger than me...I know what you mean, you need a strong hand and a sharp mind to handle a strong / sharp dog, but still I wouldn't "slap" the dog like that.Strong leash jerks are "old school" and still work with hard dogs, so I am ok with that.
Post by: zimbris on June 11, 2010, 02:31:10 PM
I am curious to hear what Dux has to say.. waiting for him to return from Sibiu.
Post by: Man Stopper on June 12, 2010, 12:43:32 AM
distanta dintre placere si durere e mica!!! Dar spunand asta, trebuie sa luam in considerare ca tipul asta e profesionist in ceea ce face si are abilitatea de a 'citi' cainele.. Cand e vorba de Forte Speciale / Politie (revolte) cu toti ne imaginam ca e nevoie de un partener cainin, gata sa faca fata indiferent de provocari. Un caine care poate indura tratament mai dur, o face pt ca e in gena, nu prin dresaj, deci in opinia mea nu e nevoie de astfel de antrenament!!!
Post by: zimbris on June 12, 2010, 12:48:03 AM
Quote from: "Man Stopper"
A dog that can take punishment has it genetically and not through training, so IMO you would not need this method of training.!!!!well said!
Post by: shamankin6 on June 12, 2010, 07:14:18 PM
Quote from: "Leo Pui"
Hello lists,
I saw this video clip a few months ago and still keep a copy on that <wink>. The dog that u saw in the video clip is definitely a hard dog that ACCEPT hard correction that wont fail it drives. The owner of this dog is a Police Dog Handler that has many years experience in handling this type of dogs!
This dog in this video was just merely a few sections of training (as per the owner)! Months later, he did well not only on his job but also in the competition!
When come to the confront of bad guy that do not scare of police dog, one really need this type of dog to iron the issue and get the bad guy apprehend!
It is true that this video clip may affect someone else but to this group of peoples, they went through the hard-stuff and they know what they are going into apart from well ahead in reading dog for pushing to the maximum!
I am expressing my comment, and I have no problem on this when one know the capabilities! Both of them are hard anyway <wink>!
Peace.
Salutare,
Am vazut clipul respectiv cu ceva timp in urma si am pastrat o copie ;)
peace
Its so nice to see you also here sir Leo!
Howdy?anyway, i know we both know the guy who share this video. same thing in mind goes..but i can't imagine such "high" frequency correction keep applying by the handler. i know this guys work as K9 handlers and most of them are K9 police in fact. im also thinking the dog been used to it and able to adapt such "pattern" of correction by his handler.
Ron
Post by: shamankin6 on June 12, 2010, 07:15:25 PM
Quote from: "zimbris"
well.. wouldn't that man be upset by this...? He obviously set the video to "private" for a reason...
your right there Dan! Hahahah! pretty sure its gonna be a HOT HOT HOT discussion just in case.
Ron
Post by: shamankin6 on June 12, 2010, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: "Leo Pui"
Quote from: "zimbris"well.. wouldn't that man be upset by this...? He obviously set the video to "private" for a reason...Yeah ... guess I will just respect the owner's decision then although I strongly believe that he just doesnt want those who follow blindly :|
Ron
Post by: shamankin6 on June 12, 2010, 07:21:34 PM
Quote
Training a dog for hard core action and more violent situations doesn't mean turning the dog into a pumpkin you can slap in order to "correct".
honestly, you made me laugh on this statement. but its true! :lol:
Ron
Post by: Leo Pui on June 12, 2010, 07:22:44 PM
Quote from: "shamankin6"
Its so nice to see you also here sir Leo! ;)
Different chief have different ways of cooking method as long as the end result come out good ...
Post by: dux on June 15, 2010, 09:01:05 AM
I just watched the clip. this is the case of a good dog and a very bad trainer. personally, if I had the power to do what i wanted, I would make sure these 'trainers' would never be allowed to train dogs. I am for toughness in training where that is needed but under no conditions will I agree to turn the training session into a "hit the dog" session.
Post by: Santos on June 15, 2010, 10:29:45 AM
I also watched the video and I couldn't understand what the trainer was trying to achieve. There are better ways to correct the dog and with greater results. In this particular case it seems as if the handler was a beginner he didn't know himself why he was bitting the dog up like that. In that specific exercise the classic power collar would have done the job.
Post by: zimbris on June 16, 2010, 02:48:07 AM
I am glad both of you commented, I was waiting for the views of trainers such as yourselves - especially kn owing that you are FOR tough dogs.
Post by: RogerW on June 30, 2010, 05:35:55 AM
Vreau sa am o legatura cu cainele meu si nu cred ca obtii asa ceva lovindu-ti propriul caine. Da, voi testa un caine intr-un mod mai dur.. numai cand consider ca e gata pt asa ceva si nu inainte, dar e vb de o alta persoana care va fi dura, cainele trebuie sa aiba incredere in mine, daca e vb de tu si inamicul fata in fata. Daca dresorul respectiv ar cadea pe niste trepte accidental mentinand cainele intr-un nivel de stres ridicat iar cainele nu ar fi unul super echilibrat, va avea el mintea suficient de clara incat sa nu-si muste stapanul? Intreb asta pt ca am mai vazut un asemenea dresor (ofiter de patrula canina) folosind la antrenamente sirene (sau cum le spunem noi, de fac galagie mare) .. cainele stie ca a sosit momentul "spectacolului" si e stresat.. iar dresorul s-a impiedicat in timp ce iesea din masina. Iar cainele a "actionat" (l-a muscat)
Post by: zimbris on June 30, 2010, 06:37:12 AM
There is that video of Lord Gleisdreieck at work and you can see the handler applying some (somewhat) hard coreections in places, but he does not hit the dog.
To be completely honest, I would think one would do that to prove to himself or those around, that he can handle a tough dog, it's more to do with pride, than actually pointing out the dog's qualities.
Imi place p tau de vedere! Nici eu nu sunt de acord cu ceea ce se intampla in clipul respectiv. Am fost si eu in situatii dure, pt o perioada maricica si nu ma refer strict la situatii cu caini. Toate bataia aia din clip e inutila. Da, voi aplica corectii dure unui caine dur, dar nu il voi lovi!
Este acel clip cu Lord Gleisdreieck la lucru, unde se pot remarca ceva corectii mai dure pe ici pe colo, dar cainele nu este lovit.
Sa fiu sincer pana la capat, tind sa cred ca cineca ar face astfel de lucru cu cainele pt a-si dovedi lui sau celor din jur ca poate sa se ocupe de un caine mai dur. Iar asta are legatura mai mult cu orgoliul decat cu subliniera calitatilor cainelui.
Post by: Man Stopper on June 30, 2010, 01:20:40 PM
Would a hard dog need to have a close bond with Man, in order to perform ?
Cand e vb de caini de patrula / serviciu, ei isi fac treaba din ascultare de handler (politist in cazul asta) sau din pura placere pt lucru/lupta?
Un caine mai dur ar avea nevoie de o legatura mai stransa cu omul, pt a lucra eficient?
Quote from: "RogerW"
the dog has to trust me if it's us against the enemy
Post by: zimbris on June 30, 2010, 01:57:29 PM
I would personally say it's a mix of both, depending on the dog's personality.. I would dare to say a dog that actually HAS a personality, not just obey orders like a robot, would also do the work out of a natural desire to be in action.. that's just my opinion... I find it that dogs with loads of prey drive would do things to satisfy the handler, knowing the reward will come from the handler (of course that is also to do with the training system applied on that specific dog). Whilst a dig with good defense / fight drive will gladly take the fight to the agitator, regardless of rewards.. actually I might add the reward for such a dog is the contact itself (with the agitator)
Buna intrebare Reg..
Personal as spune ca e vorba de ambele, depinde de personalitatea cainelui.. ba chiar as indrazni sa spun ca un caine care ARE personalitate, nu doar care executa ordine ca un robot, ar face treaba din dorinta proprie de a fi in actiune.. e opinia mea.. am impresia ca exemplarele cu mult inst de prada lucreaza din dorinta de a satisface handlerul si la final sa obtina recompensa - tot de la handler (desigur asta si functie de tipul de dresaj aplicat) In timp ce un caine cu inst bun de aparare / lupta va duce lupta cu placere la agitator, indiferent de recompensa.. de fapt as spune ca 'recompensa' este contactul in sine.
Post by: Man Stopper on July 19, 2011, 01:11:50 AM
Prin termenul "sensibil" se face referire doar la temperamentul cainelui fatza de handler; si/ sau de asemenea abilitatea de a lucra cu atentatorul?
Post by: zimbris on July 20, 2011, 05:05:11 AM
let's see what a trainer has to say about that
Post by: tessa on July 20, 2011, 06:19:25 AM
To test a dog about his character we must put him into different situations but we must remember that a dog will always react different when he is put in different situations. This subject can be discussed for hours (but time doesn't allow me) because I had many dogs through my hands (different breeds) and I studied they're behavior in different environment, with different factors that influenced dog's behavior.
Post by: Man Stopper on July 20, 2011, 09:43:16 AM
Compared to cop dogs who have totally differant situations to deal with in the busy noise pollution city, in most cases..
A naturally real tough dog from my experience would perform, even if tied on a post 500 mtrs from there owner, hard and civil in body language and deep bark...!
Imi imaginez ca, cainii din Politia de Frontiera ar fi fost conditionati doar in acel mediu (padure)...
Comparati cu cainii politisti care au de-a face cu situatii total diferite, in aglomeratia orasului, de obicei...
Un caine cu adevarat dur, din experienta mea, ar efectua, chiar si legat la 500 m de stapan, un limbaj al corpului dur si un latrat profund...!
Post by: Sorin on July 20, 2011, 09:49:44 AM
Post by: guest on July 20, 2011, 10:17:14 AM
Post by: Sorin on July 20, 2011, 10:17:51 AM
Post by: guest on July 20, 2011, 10:30:30 AM
Nu suntem (eu si Dani) intotdeauna pe faza, dar incercam sa traducem cat de repede putem.
Post by: Sorin on July 20, 2011, 10:31:16 AM
Post by: zimbris on July 20, 2011, 11:47:41 AM
Traduceti si voi discutiile astea, este un topic foarte interesant.!pune-te pe invatat engleza! ;)
Post by: Sorin on July 20, 2011, 12:37:09 PM
pune-te pe invatat engleza! ;)Pai o stiu ,dar poate sunt din forum care nu o inteleg in totalitate. :)
Post by: zimbris on July 20, 2011, 12:57:41 PM
Post by: guest on July 20, 2011, 01:32:20 PM