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Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
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Offline RogerW

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 10:09:45 AM »
Agreed with Santos all the way.  We don't give the dog a sleeve if it's used at all (suit, hidden sleeve much preferred).   His reward is a "dying" decoy.  Instead of teaching an out, we have let the dog get the man down after a struggle and I will pull up on the collar some, just putting tension on the dog who does NOT want to let go of the suit, and then release him so he automatically gets a better bite.   We do this several times and the dog gets better and better bites because he wants to finish the fight.  When the fight is over and the man is "dead", that is the dog's reward, not winning a piece of equipment.

Offline RogerW

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 10:30:00 AM »
I did not know you could downsize video so that it made it easier to upload until Dani told me, so what we recorded here was very, very short and about 1/3 of the time we spent on this one bite.   What you see at the end of the clip is me pulling up on Drago's collar.  This was not to make him let go, it was to make him think he was about to lose his grip or at least to make him think he needed to fight harder; what you can't see is that after the clip cuts off is I released Drago who bit HARDER while Bob was flopping on the ground and fighting with him a bit, but slowly "dying" the longer it went on.  I picked up on his collar a few more times and released it for harder and harder bites as Bob fought less and less.  In the end, Drago "killed" his opponent and was put up while Bob was still on the ground.   This is just a ridiculously short example and Bob can explain it much better.



Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 10:32:11 AM »
Well that's a good question and I am sort of new to this new type training that my own trainer does.  I think he either is a member now or will be once he is settled down in Afghanistan, so I won't speak for him, but I have seen him use a rag with a young dog...and when he does the dog is biting for real...like in hidden sleeve work, it doesn't work forever before the dog realizes it's not real..but that first bite they think it is if worked right.   (For example, Bob told me that he noticed that the decoy working Axa as a puppy was preparing her for sport but also was a good decoy because he was also not taking away too much her potential for real protection in the way he worked her).   
More of what I know for sure from my own observations has to do with what I think I should NOT to do as opposed what to do...for me....like not carrying sleeves or purposely turning your dog's back to the "bad guy" to run in a circle with a toy.   Teaching drive for and possessiveness of an inanimate object makes no sense when the bad guy is over there.   And not only people teach drive for inanimate objects, they then go on to breed for that trait instead of breeding for the instinct to actually protect.  I also think that people are in such a hurry to work their dogs that they start them way to young teaching them these wrong things, instead of waiting until they're older and capitalizing on the instincts that kick in when they are more mature.  Young dogs are taught against that, and the ones that are easiest to teach against it are bred (Sch comes to mind).
asta e o intrebare buna, iar eu sunt mai nou in ceea ce priveste tipul asta de dresaj pe care dresorul meu il face.Cred ca ori este membru pe forum , ori va deveni membru odata ce se va stabili in afganistan, asa ca nu voi vorbi pentru el,dar l-am vazut folosing o carpa cu un caine tanar...si cand o foloseste cainele musca pentru real...la fel si cu maneca ascunsa, nu lucreaza prea mult , ca sa nu-si dea seama cainele ca nu e real...dar prima muscatura cainele crede ca este reala, in cazul in care este lucrata asa cum trebuie.(Spre exemplu Bob, mi-a spus ca atentatorul care a lucrat-o pe Axa cand era pui o pregatea pentru sport, dar ca e un atentator bun si pentru ca nu i-a luat prea mult din potentialul pentru realitate, prin felul in care a lucrat cu ea).
Ceea ce stiu sigur din observatiile mele,are mai mult legatura cu ceea ce NU ar trebui sa fac, decat cu ceea ce ar trebui sa fac...pentru mine...de exemplu sa nu dau cainelui sa duca maneca, sau sa nu intorc intentionat cainele cu spatele la infractor pentru a purta jucaria in cerc.
Sa-l invat sa lupte pentru a poseda un obiect al infractorului, nu are nici un rost atat cat timp infractorul este acolo.Si nu doar ca se invata cainele sa posede un obiect al infractorului, dar se trece la selectia cainilor special pentru aceasta caracteristica in loc sa se faca selectia tinand cont de instinctul de protectie.Mai cred ca oamenii se grabesc prea tare sa-si lucreze cainii, astfel incat ii invata de mici aceste lucruri gresite, in loc sa astepte sa creasca cainele si sa profite de instinctele ce apar mai tarziu, spre maturitate.
Cainii tineri sunt dresati contrar acestui principiu, iar cei ce invata cel mai usor in felul acesta sunt selectati(SCh imi vine in minte)
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 10:33:39 AM »
dresajul pentru real se face diferit de cel sportiv
si este bine sa nu se foloseasca elemente de dresaj sportiv pentru paza
dog training for reality is different from the sport.
is good NOT to use sport training elements for reality protection
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline RogerW

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »


This is some muzzle work with Kilo, a dog trained and handled by Bob.  He has since sold him to a police dept.

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 10:50:26 AM »
If you get in a life and death situation and you have a dog that is real enough to engage and stay on a bite...or bite everywhere, whichever he does, he isn't going to listen to your command to out,no matter how many times he has done it on the field.  Not in my opinion.  I could be wrong, I haven't seen every dog, that's for sure.   But dogs know the difference.   When I used to judge catch dogs, a few people would tell me their dogs would "out" on command.  I would hate being close to them while catching, because to me that meant that he was not committed and there was going to be an even greater chance someone would get cut by the hog.    I want to have to break a dog off.    For safety and 3rd party evaluation I think an "out" is a good command and I will train it (and Bob will teach it) only after there is no doubt the dog is committed in all situations.   I won't be pulling a dog off if he bites someone, either, he just needs to do as much damage as possible until I can get a clear shot, so an out is not that important to me.

But my trainer also stresses that there are many roads to the same destination, dogs can be trained in all kinds of ways to reach the same goal.

I hope Bob will jump in here when he gets settled, he just got to Afghanistan day before yesterday.

cand esti implicat intr-o situatie pe viata si pe moarte, si ai un caine destul de "real" incat sa muste si sa stea acolo...ori daca musca de oriunde, oricum ar face-o, nu va asculta comanda OUT, indiferent de cate ori ati repetat pe terenul de dresaj.Eu cred ca nu.As putea sa ma insel,n-am vazut toti cainii, asta-i sigur.Dar cainii sesizeaza diferenta.Cand arbitram caini pentru a prinde porci, cativa oameni mi-au spus ca au caini ce dau drumul la comanda.Uram sa fiu aproape de ei, cand prindeau pentru ca asta insemna ca nu sunt destul de hotarati si era pericolol destul de mare ca cineva sa fie ranit de porc.  Vreau sa am un caine pe care sa trebuiasca sa-l "trag" de pe porc.Pentru siguranta si in ultimul rand pentru evaluare,cred ca "OUT" este o comanda buna, si o voi pregati( Bob o va preda), numai cand sunt absolut sigur ca , cainele este hotarat in toate situatiile.Nici nu voi opri un caine in timpul muscaturii, pur si simplu el trebuie sa produca cat mai multe rani asa incat eu sa am o sansa cat mai buna, deci comanda OUT nu este asa de importanta pentru mine.


Dar dresorul meu insista ca sunt multe drumuri care ajung la aceeasi destinatie, cainii pot fi dresati in multe feluri pentru a ajunge la acelasi punct.

Sper ca Bob sa intervina in discutie cat de curand, tocmai ce a ajuns in Afganistan acum 3 zile
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 10:59:36 AM »
I like to use the "OUT" command in the beginning/early stages of training, and once i see that the young dog has a fairly good understanding and excepting the OUT... I would then avoid using the "OUT" command... This IMO then creates a continous winning of prey/biting, as the OFF switch command is not present. The teasing and keeping the dog in suspense should not be repeated too many times, especially when the dog reaches a stage when he loves to bite objects in various situations/confrontations. Reversing from OUT command to FIGHT command gives extra desire, the more desire there is, the more we see the FIGHT.   

Imi place sa folosesc comanda OUT, la inceput in primele stadii ale antrenamentului, si in momentul cand vad ca acesta a inteles destul de bine si accepta comanda ..apoi evit sa folosesc comanda OUT...Acest mod de operare creeaza victoria din prada/muscatura, cum comanda de OFF nu este prezenta.Agitarea si mentinerea cainelui in suspans nu trebuie repetata prea mult, in special cand ajunge la placerea de a musca obiecte in diferite situatii/confruntari.Inversand comanda OUT catre LUPTA sporim dorinta cainelui, cu cat are mai multa dorinta, cu atat mai mult vedem LUPTA.
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 11:21:45 AM »
Like I say, many roads to the same destination.  I always taught "out" to the pups of my mixed dogs with their toys and kept it going the rest of their life in protection.   Since they don't lack drives or fight I never saw any problem with it, however I never realized how many sport techniques had been taught to me by everyone I  had ever trained with until I started with Bob.  
He and I talk a lot about how teaching something and then reversing it is an extra step that doesn't need to be there, and it happens a lot in training, which is why he trains for biting the man from the time they are puppies as much as maturity allows ...and without teaching biting equipment (I mean focusing on it in the standard sport technique way) and then "reversing" that to get them to bite the man later.  When they are biting to his satisfaction in all situations, then they are taught an out...no back and forth, no teaching "this" and then turning it into "that.".   But I need to let him explain his training.  Since his forte is fixing the problems that police dogs have from their sport training backgrounds, he has distinct views on how to skip that training that leads to those problems.   I have not raised up dogs as he does, yet.   I will say however, that I never knew how equipment fixated dogs are trained to be until I was shown.

cum spuneam, multe drumuri duc la aceeasi destinatie.totdeauna am predat comanda OUT puilor legat de jucarii, si am pastrat lucrul acesta toata viata sin in protectie.din moment ce nu duc lipsa de drive sau de fight n-am vazut nici o problema, cu toate astea nu am realizat cate tehnici de sport am fost invatat de toti cei cu care am lucrat pana cand am inceput sa lucrez cu Bob.
Am vorbit cu el de multe ori despre invatarea unei comenzi si apoi de inversarea ei, si aceasta este un pas suplimentar care nu-i necesar, si se intampla de multe ori in antrenamente, si de aceea el lucreaza muscatura pe om chiar de pui atat cat le permite varsta...fara a introduce echipamentul de dresaj( ma refer la fixarea lor pe echipament asa cum se intampla in sport), si apoi ii "intoarce" asa incat sa muste omul mai tarziu.Numai in  clipa cand cainele musca asa cum ii place lui in orice situatie, va incepe sa-i invete comanda OUT....nimic inainte si inapoi...nu-i invata "asta", pentru ca mai tarziu "asta" sa insemne "alta".cred ca cel mai bine il las pe el sa explice ce metoda aplica.atat timp cat punctul lui forte este acela de a repara greselile datorate dresajului pentru sport, el are pareri distincte despre cum sa evite tipul de antrenament ce conduce spre aceste probleme.
Pana acum nu am crescut nici un caine dupa metoda lui, inca.Totusi pot sa spun , ca nu am realizat cat de fixati pe echipament devin cainii, pana ce nu mi s-a aratat.
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline bobo70

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 11:23:35 AM »
Multumim pentru traduceri "kangdanlin". :)
Ti-ai pierdut ceva timp cu asta.... ;)

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2011, 11:27:33 AM »
Multumim pentru traduceri "kangdanlin". :)
Ti-ai pierdut ceva timp cu asta.... ;)
:lol:
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline RogerW

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2011, 11:37:43 AM »
Kangdanlin:  I'm assuming Bobo thanked you for the translation work, and so do I....very nice.

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2011, 11:39:44 AM »
If the owner creates drive with various objects, to chase retrieve and build grip. And come the day that the K9 is confronted by stranger(helper), would this earlier training, benefit the novice K9 when an hidden sleeve is suggested to the young dog.
Or is it that various equipment/objects are not needed, as this might lessen the seriousness or intention to bite for real ?
I personally like to build the drives and more so the bond with Casso with some chasing/biting objects and so on..
Although i wish to have hidden sleeve/body suit work from beginning, which is what your saying i think.
The K9 will focus on arm, leg and back And not only familiar equipment thrown in its face..Kangdanlin i to find this topic on Sport/Police training, very interesting also.
And as Roger said that many roads lead to the same destination.
 
daca stapanul creeaza dirve cu ajutorul unor obiecte variate, pentru a urmari aporta si construi muscatura.Si daca vine ziua cand cainele este confruntat de un strain(ajutor),acest antrenament anterior il va ajuta in momentul cand i se va prezenta maneca ascunsa.
ori aceste obiecte/echipamente variate nu sunt necesare, atat timp cat lectia principala este seriozitatea si intentia de a musca pe real?
personal prefer sa creez drive si atasament cu Casso prin vanarea/muscarea unor obiecte si asa mai departe..
Desi imi doresc sa am maneca ascunsa/costum de lucru chiar de la inceput, asta fiind si ceea ce recomanzi cred.
Cainele se va fixa pe brat, picior, spate si nu doar pe echipamentul familiar aruncat spre el.
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2011, 11:40:43 AM »
Kangdanlin:  I'm assuming Bobo thanked you for the translation work, and so do I....very nice.
thanks...like i said..very interesting stuff  notworthy
cant wait to see Bob in here :lol:
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill

Offline bobo70

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2011, 11:46:06 AM »
Kangdanlin:  I'm assuming Bobo thanked you for the translation work, ......

Yes Roger,.... :). We want to thank you for your opinions.

Offline kangdanlin

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Re: Real training vs sport training / Sport vs Real
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 11:49:42 AM »
Agreed with Santos all the way.  We don't give the dog a sleeve if it's used at all (suit, hidden sleeve much preferred).   His reward is a "dying" decoy.  Instead of teaching an out, we have let the dog get the man down after a struggle and I will pull up on the collar some, just putting tension on the dog who does NOT want to let go of the suit, and then release him so he automatically gets a better bite.   We do this several times and the dog gets better and better bites because he wants to finish the fight.  When the fight is over and the man is "dead", that is the dog's reward, not winning a piece of equipment.
de acord cu Santos in tot ceea ce spune.nu oferim cainelui maneca obisnuita(costum, maneca ascunsa este preferata).Recompensa lui este un atentator ce "moare".Decat sa invat OUT, las cainele sa doboare omul dupa o lupta si voi trage putin de zgarda, doar sa creez tensiune in cainele care NU vrea sa lase costumul, si apoi il eliberez asa incat automat el va prinde mai bine.Facem lucrul acesta de cateva ori iar cainele invata sa prinda tot mai bine pentru ca vrea sa termine lupta.Cand omul este "mort", aceasta este recompensa cainelui si nu castigarea unei bucati de echipament
Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.
Winston Churchill