Fight Drive

[Man Stopper]

Is there a clear definition of what "Fight Drve" really is ?
What are the key signs of a dog in "Fight Drive" ?

Exista o definitie clara a "instinctului de lupta"?
Care sunt semnele clare ale unui caine intrat in "instinct de lupta"?

[Zak]

A good question!
Hope you don't mind but why you ask and in what context?

[zimbris]

My guess is Dux and Santos would provide some proper info but this is the best way I can put it:
a fight takes place between two or more parts, it is an interaction, in which both prey and defence are involved, I truly believe you need both to build up drive. as far as dogs go,  I believe you see that in how much the dog actually DESIRES to carry the fight, not just do it because it has to defend itself etc. Also I believe fight drive in a dog always comes with self-confidence and the signs to look for it would be the "classic" ones.. tail up, in fact pretty much everything is "vertical" when in a fight mood, in my own opinion. In my experience, the signs that always led to fight dominance were tail up, upright hair on the spine, low pitched growl and forward positioning of the body, no fear in taking the fight to the opponent.
getting back to the self-confidence bit - I believe a dog with good fight instinct shows good self confidence in general, not just in a state of conflict.

Banuiesc ca Dux si Santos vor oferi niste info de calitate dar asta e raspunsul cel mai bun pe care eu personal il pot da:
o lupta se duce intre 2 sau mai multe parti, este o interactiune, in care atat atacul cat si apararea sunt implicate, sincer cred ca e nevoie de amandoua pt a obtine pe cel de lupta. In privinta cainilor, cred ca poti "vedea" instinctul de lupta prin prisma DORINTEI manifestate de caine, de a duce lupta, nu doar sa lupte pt ca nu are de ales, trebuie sa se apere etc. Mai cred ca instinctul de lupta vine automat cu increderea de sine iar semnele prezentei inst. de lupta sunt cele "clasice", in opinia mea, coada ridicata,.. de fapt mai toate sunt "verticale" cand esti 'setat" pt lupta. Din ce am vazut pana in prezent, cainii cu instinct puternic de lupta pe care i-am notat aveau urmatoarele semne, coada sus, parul pe spate / ceafa ridicat/zburlit, marait gros si o postura de "inaintare", un fel de semn ca nu se teme de conflict, nu se teme sa duca lupta la adversar.
Legat de increderea de sine - cred ca un caine cu instinct bun de lupta arata incredere de sine in general, nu doar in situatii de conflict.

[Man Stopper]

If a dog is in Defense and switches to Prey or Vice Versa, does this not have the possibility of "Flight"when the pressure is applied..?
On the other hand i believe a true desire of "Fight Drive"the dog does not switch back and forth from Defense Prey Defense Prey..
Have read many differant opinions on this area of Fight Drive ( desire to bring on the fight) not out of self preservation..
Would it be fair to say that Fight Drive is genetic and cannot be trained..?
Zak i feel that there is much confusion on the definition of Fight Drive, and would be good for us to share our views..

[zimbris]

Would it be fair to say that Fight Drive is genetic and cannot be trained..?

ar fi corect sa spunem ca un caine nu poate dobandi inst. de lupta prin dresaj, acesta este genetic..?

I quoted you on what I believe to be one of the key elements to do with fight drive. NO, fight drive cannot be trained into the dog, it's either there or not, just like looks I guess. or in the case of looks, let's say you can fix that through surgery but you will not pass to "progenies"  :mrgreen:
cred ca un caine care manifesta inst de lupta bun, este un caine care de fapt arata si inst de prada bun. Si da si eu cred ca un caine care trece des dintr-un inst. in celalalt, in cazul unui singur conflict, are probleme cu increderea in sine si respectiv as spune, probleme la capitolul inst. de lupta.
Tin minte ca am mai purtat discutiile astea despre drive si in alte forumuri si multi spuneau ca apararea si lupta sunt unu si acelasi lucru - cu care afirmatie nu sunt de acord. daca ne gandim bine, de fapt apararea nu e departe de teama - o faci pt ca trebuie sa o faci, sau pt ca nu ai de ales.[/color]

[Bogdan]

Instinctele sunt prin definitie mostenite genetic. Dar asta nu ne opreste sa le cultivam sau sa le distrugem prin dresaj.
Cine ne poate spune cand un caine lucreaza in prada si cand lucreaza in paza?
Cine ne poate spune ce predomina intr-un caine?
Cine poate spune toate astea cand are in fata un pui de 3-4 luni?

Prezenta instinctului de paza este necesara, dar la fel de necesara e cultivarea instinctului de prada pentru un caine utilitar.
Atentie, am spus utilitar, nu de paza. Pentru paza si atat sunt rase mai performante decat CG.

Intrebati la Iasi de ce au si Caucazieni pe langa casa.

[zimbris]

la intrebarile puse de tine pot raspunde cei care lucreaza DES cu caini, cu multi caini.
Nu poti trage linie in privinta instinctelor cand e vorba de un catel de 4 luni (...?) schimbari tot apar in primele luni de viata.
S-a tot discutat pe marginea astor lucruri in forumul celalat si erai si tu "prin zona" - anume - in cazul anumitor caini nu ai ce cultiva prin dresaj daca el genetic nu detine raportul de instincte necesar pt dresajul dorit.

[Zak]

Thank you Man stopper for further clarifying.
I have never thought about it in the that context  you raise but its clearly a very valid point you make and one that is complex.
 I would be very interested in the opinions of our experienced members on this forrum.
Unfortunatley I am no expert but would suggest Dani has given I very logical expalanation which makes sense.

However in my own experience with my last dog Sam I found he was naturally by nature a soft/kind dog.  Although he came from good breeding individually with proven offspring. But not from the same breeding together as it had never been done before.  Therefore the genetics were there in both dogs.  However the personality of this dog was such he lacked aggression but had good pray/play drive.  He was a confident dog. He very rarely showed defence drive or fear in a different types of situations.

I know my experience of this one dog goes against  what Dani is saying when he talks about genetics but I do agree with him in priincipal.
I find it hard to think how a dog can switch from one to the other in the same situation.  I can understand how the can happen over a period of time with training when you start training a dog who is shy and defensive but when you start building his confidence starts to show aggression and thus a good fighting spirit as it thinks mentally it can win as it has been doing during training.

[zimbris]

Zak, this is how I see things:
Let's say you train a dog that genetically doesn't have very sharp fighting instinct and you gradually build up his confidence. But eventually, in a real life situation this dog comes across yet even bigger pressure and will not go all the way because, really, he is not genetically built for that.. I hope I am making sense.

But hear me say this - yes, you can "improve" the dog through good training, to some degree. BUT from a breeding stand point that equals .. nothing.. because what you put in the dog through training does not pass on to progenies, just like I stated in my first post in the topic.

Also... just to make sure - are you putting defense on the same level with fear..? I am just asking because you said:
"He very rarely showed defence drive or fear in a different types of situations."

[Zak]

I agree with you and that seems the sensible logical approach to adopt.

But mother nature tells us genetics are a funny thing and unpredictable.  We can aim to inhance certain qualities by trying to imprint certain characteristics through breeding selection. Certain breedings produce very good results while others leave us disappointed. Then by chance we can get the most amazing results from a breeding which are not necessarly from the sire or dam.  This can be illustrated when people say "this dog/bitch is a producer" reffering to the fact the sire/dam might not be great but they can produce.

I was simply trying to highlight as individual dogs (ie the sire and dam to my old dog sam) they were good capable dogs.  Both had produced good progenies but this mix did not.

Sorry no I was not putting defence on the same level as fear. What I was trying to say was he lacked the aggression and fighting spirit to defend his territory when some would enter it or showed aggression toward him or the handler.
But at the same time he did not ever show any fear thus bringing out any type of aggression due to fear and a need to fight rather than wanting to fight.

Does that make sense? coz even am getting confused

[hardbite29]

Very interesting however i do not believe fight drive can come to every dog and i my opinion it will come when the dog is mature and has the right type of training with balancing prey and defense and GENETICS without that forget fight drive, dogs which have a high prey drive will also develop fight drive easier as well as dogs who are dominant in temperament will develop it also. In my view it is important to start a dog in prey first and then only when the time is right the decoy or helper will move that dog into defense when the dog is in defense its confidence will increase only if the genetics are good and training along with it. A dog to have fight drive IMO needs to be able to have Forwardness of Prey and the Intensity of Defense, Ideally the dog will have a huge amount of Confidence in every environment and nothing really should phase this dog, the dog should not look insecure.

[zimbris]

I totally agree, that's why we start prey based play/work with our young ones and only when they are about 12 months old we move into decoy work, when the dog's instincts are more mature.

[Man Stopper]

Very interesting however i do not believe fight drive can come to every dog and i my opinion it will come when the dog is mature and has the right type of training with balancing prey and defense and GENETICS without that forget fight drive, dogs which have a high prey drive will also develop fight drive easier as well as dogs who are dominant in temperament will develop it also.

My view is that fight drive is there from the start and 'only' then can it be developed.

Whats the difference with between a high prey drive dog and the defensive type when it comes to the final result when fully matured.
Does one of these opposite traits perform better than the other..?

[Santos]

instinctul de paza este ereditar dar conteaza si modul cum este crescut si dresat cainele Eu  cresc si ciobanesc caucazian pe langa alte 4 rase de caini (labrador golden westi.) dar nu pentru paza ci din punct de vedere comercial Ciobanescul german este un caine polivalent dar  este si un caine de paza sau asa ar trebui sa fie

guard instinct is hereditary trait but breeding and training type are also important. I also breed Caucasian Ovcharka as well as other 4 different dog breeds (Labrador, Golden Retriever and Westies among them) but not for guarding purposes but for commercial reasons.  The GS dog is a polyvalent dog or at least it's supposed to be

[Bogdan]

instinctul de paza este ereditar dar conteaza si modul cum este crescut si dresat cainele Eu  cresc si ciobanesc caucazian pe langa alte 4 rase de caini (labrador golden westi.) dar nu pentru paza ci din punct de vedere comercial Ciobanescul german este un caine polivalent dar  este si un caine de paza sau asa ar trebui sa fie

Sunt sigur ca nu folosesti Caucazienii ca sa-ti pazeasca Ciobanestii Germani, dar exista un segment de piata care cere doar paza de la caine si e mai simplu cu un caucazian decat cu un CG.

Ma bucura confirmarea ta cu privire la modul de crestere si la influenta lui asupra evolutiei cainelui la maturitate.

Un an nou fericit va doresc tuturor!

I am sure you are not using your Caucasian dogs to guard the GSD's, but there is that market segment which only demands the guarding aspect in a dog and the first choice would most likely be the Caucasian, over the GS dog.

I am glad you confirm the importance of the breeding style and the way that impacts  the dog later in adult life.

Let me wish you all a happy new year!